Cream of the Crop 1/Cream of the Crop 1.iso/RELIGION/OB_91B.ARJ/12-01-91

Text File | 1992-03-03 | 207KB | 4,558 lines

Date       12-01-91 08:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Lonnie Hortick
Subject    The Virgin Mary

 LH> womb.  But if Jesus was/is God from the moment of his conception
 LH> then the Mary IS the Mother of God!  And NO ONE has said that
 LH> Mary gave Jesus his divinity.  He already had that!

 You are working from the assumption that Jesus was God.  Consider the
 following scripture and you may not have to wonder about Mary any more:

 MAR 13:32    But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not
              the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the
              Father.

 JOH 4:24    God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
             [him] in spirit and in truth.

 JOH 8:54    Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing:
             it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he
             is your God:

 1TI 2:5     For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and
             men, the man Christ Jesus;

 COL 3:1     If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which
             are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 JOH 5:19    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I
             say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what
             he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth,
             these also doeth the Son likewise.

 1JO 4:14    And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the
             Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

 2JO 1:9     Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine
             of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine
             of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 GEN 1:27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God
             created he him; male and female created he them.

 2CO 4:4     In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of
             them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
             gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine
             unto them.


 ACS 22:9    And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were
             afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to
             me.


 MAT 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father
             with his angels; and then he shall reward every man
             according to his works.

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Date       12-01-91 13:11:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Jesus/GOD

 JF>  It's real simple, there is nothing *we* can do to pay the price
 JF> for our sins.

 The reality is this:  We cannot save ourselves without God's help and
 God cannot save man with out man's cooperation.

 ACS 2:38    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one
 of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye
 shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 MAT 7:21    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
 into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
 which is in heaven.

 MAT 5:20     For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall
 exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no
 case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 JAM 5:20    Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the
 error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a
 multitude of sins.

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Date       12-01-91 19:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         C. Spurgeon
Subject     Exegetical Help Wanta

 CS> I found the Bible calling Jesus God all over the place both
 CS> OT AND NT so I had to come to the truth with out teaching from
 CS> the out side that Jesus is Jehovah.
 CS> but I see every time I talk to a JW he/she tells me he/she is
 CS> just going by the Bible, But thay alway pull a buch of books out
 CS> to show me how thay are only going by the Bible.
 CS> every time I come to a JW house that is if thay let me in, book,
 CS> after book after book, comes out just to show me what your Bible
 CS> says. the people who I seen come to christ out of the Jw church
 CS> is only after thay have take the chalnage of put aside for one
 CS> year the whachtower, the awake, and there other books and just
 CS> read the Bible. I would ask you to do the same If you would like
 CS> I could send you a NKJV Bible to read.
 CS> again My only hope is for you to come to know the true Jesus.

 I find this rather funny.  Every religion I have investigated has 'their
 book' that explains 'The Book'.  But you seem to be saying your religion
 does not have any doctrine of faith or pamphlets, sunday school lessons
 or any such 'bunch of books'.  What religion are you by the way ?

 When someone asks you what they must do to be saved do you tell them
 just read the Bible ?  Or do you have selected parts to show to them
 that emphasize your particular flavor of heresy ?

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Date       12-01-91 19:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Roger Hepworth
Subject     Moderator

 RH> CM>         'Scuse me, but just who IS the moderator of the Open
 RH> Bible ech CM> like to know, just curious...
 RH>
 RH> I would like to know that also.
 RH> if you fined out could you let me know.

 I forgot but I did hear he went to school and I have not noticed the
 rules getting posted for several months now.   Since there doesn't seem
 to be one maybe we should have an election and choose from among the
 folks who have been here for a long time.   But since that narrows the
 choices down to me, Tim, and Ralph that may not be the best idea.<grin>

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Date       12-01-91 19:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Roger Hepworth
Subject     The "virgin" Mary

 RH> None of the first and second centry church fathers believed that
 RH> Mary remained a virgin.

 True and none of them believed Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born
 either.

      Both the Lukan and Matthew genealogies trace the family line of
 Joseph.  Almost no modern scholars tries to solve the differences
 between them by conjecturing that one belonged to Mary.  However, if
 Jesus was not the actual son of Joseph, what value would there be in
 tracing Joseph's lineage back to David, Abraham or Adam ??  This
 provokes the question, how important is the virgin-birth concept for the
 messianic work of Jesus ?  Is it an essential dogma of Christian faith
 to believe that Jesus had no physical father ?  What theological value
 is attached to the Virgin Mary ?

      All of the ancient creeds affirm the virginity of Mary. However,
 this uninimity does not apply to the New Testament.  Matthew and Luke
 alone give infancy stories about Jesus. Mark, John and Paul ignore
 completely the idea that Mary gave birth to her son without uniting with
 a man.  Paul makes two very vague references to Jesus' birth. In
 Galatians he writes that "God sent forth His Son, born of a woman"
 (4:4-5) and in Romans he speaks of Jesus "born of the seed of David"
 (1:3).  These texts give no support to the virgin-birth doctrine.  As
 for Mark and John, those Gospels express so little interest in the
 nativity of Jesus that Mark does not mention the name of Joseph and John
 does not tell us Jesus' mother's name.  Because of this awkward silence
 about Mary's virginity in most of the New Testament, it is doubtful that
 the story of the virginal conception was handed down by the family of
 Jesus to the apostles. Aside from the opening chapters of Matthew and
 Luke, the virgin birth is completely ignored in the accounts of Jesus'
 mature life, ministry, death and resurrection.
      Next the notion of Mary's virginity may have something to do with a
 mistranslation of a messianic text taken from Isaiah.  The Hebrew
 version of Isaiah 7:14 states that a "young girl" will give birth to a
 son whom she will call Emmanuel.  However, the Greek Septuagint
 translation states that "a virgin will be with child whom they will call
 Emmanuel." Because Matthew believed that Jesus was the Messiah whose
 coming was predicted exactly in Scripture, he concluded that Jesus must
 have been born of a virgin.
      In the ancient world, it was believed that the male alone produces
 the child and the female merely serves as a vessel in which the baby is
 carried.  Modern science has proven that both parents determine the
 physical and psychological constitution of their child.  Since both the
 father and mother would transmit any biological effects of original sin,
 it would not make Jesus sinless to deprive him of a human father. Most
 importantly, Christians today would question the notion that sexual
 intercourse is intrinsically sinful.  Ancient Jews used to teach, to
 produce a child it is necessary to have three partners - the father,
 mother and God.
      Was Joseph then the father of Jesus ?  If so, why was it necessary
 to concoct a virgin-birth legend ?  Judaism did not expect a virgin-
 born Messiah, according to the Strack-Billerbeck "Commentary on the New
 Testament from he Talmud and Midrash."  That hypothesis represents an
 "absolute novelty" for Jewish thought.  However, Christians generally
 agree that Joseph was in no way implicated in the conception of Jesus.
 Thus, one can only assume that someone else was responsible.  From early
 times, Jewish critics of Christianity claimed that Mary had an illicit
 affair with a Roman soldier named Pandera. Such allegations seem to have
 been devised long after the New Testament narratives in order to refute
 what Christians were teaching.
      A better explanation has been offered by Dr. Leslie Weatherhead,
 the longtime minister at City Temple, London.  Throughout the ancient
 Near East a "sacred marriage" ceremony was often conducted in which
 either the high priest of king played the part of the divine messenger.
 During these rites, he was married to a virgin symbolizing the holy
 union of the sun god and the earth goddess.  The offspring of such a
 mating was regarded as a divine incarnation.
      Now Zacharias was the priest on duty in the temple when Mary had a
 mystical experience in which she agreed to be a "slavegirl of the Lord."
 Though an elderly man, Zacharias was not impotent, for he had just made
 his wife Elizabeth pregnant.
      When the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would give birth
 to the Messiah , she replied, "How can this thing be, seeing that I know
 not a man?" The angel then told her that the Holy Spirit would come upon
 her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her.
      As soon as the young girl heard that she had been chosen to give
 birth to the Son of God, she "went with haste and entered the house of
 Zacharias" ( Lk :35 ).  By giving herself to the aged priest, Mary would
 prove that she was truly a hand-maiden for he Lord. Such an act of total
 surrender, far from being considered immoral in the ancient world,
 revealed the highest degree of spiritual dedication.  By uniting with
 the priest, Mary "found favor with God."

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Date       11-30-91 13:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     MOSES.5

 PM> TB> Commandments, written on the two tablets.  The Israelites
 PM> then TB> built the ark of the covenant and the tabernacle, with
 PM> the TB> tablets as the core.
 PM>
 PM>
 PM>    My question, Terry, is this:
 PM>       Do you observe the fourth commandment?
 PM>       Or do you forget the one God said to remember?

 I see what you are getting at but I wonder if you are aware the same
 question could be asked of you about Christ ?


 HEB 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by
 a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to
 say, not of this building;

 If Christ is a more perfect tabernacle then is worshiping Christ as God
 a breech of of the forth commandment too ?



 I think we would agree that there holy things and places that signify a
 point in history when and where God and man had direct contact.  Christ,
 the Tabernacle, the Bible, a Church, or Synagogue may be among those
 places/things that stand out from the fallen world.  If you had a
 special experience with your father or mother when you were young and
 you passed by that place or went through your memorabilia and found
 something that reminded you of of the love your parents had for you
 would that mean you were placing an image before the love of your
 parents ?

 EXO 33:10   And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand [at] the
 tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man
 [in] his tent door. EXO 33:11   And the LORD spake unto Moses face to
 face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

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Date       11-30-91 13:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         ALL
Subject    JESUS.1

                Jesus in the Dispensation for Restoration

Jesus had the responsibility for substantially subjugating Satan.  To do
so he had to follow the model course that God had shown in the symbol
and image courses of Jacob and Moses (Deut 18:18, Jn 5:19). But, just as
the Israelites under Moses had fallen into faithlessness in the
wilderness, the Israelites at the time of John the Baptist fell into
faithlessness, with the result that Jesus' world-wide course of the
restoration of Canaan also had to progress through three attempts or
courses.

The central person responsible to prepare the foundation for the
dispensation of salvation at the time of the Messiah was to "make
straight the way of the Lord" (Jn 1:23).  This central person was John
the Baptist, who was the "greatest born of women" (Mt 11:11).  As was
already explained in the chapter on Moses' course, the repeated
faithlessness of the Israelites had given Satan the chance to invade
Jesus' body, which was the incarnation of the rock and the tablets of
stone.  Therefore, throughout their history, God educated the chosen
people to be a people who would not fall into faithlessness.  He sent
many prophets, especially the prophet Elijah, to teach the people to
unite completely, centering on the Ideal of the Temple, which was itself
the image of Jesus.  However, because the Israelites repeatedly failed
to have faith, Elijah's sole purpose, which was to turn the Israelites
from their faithless ways back to God, was not fulfilled. Therefore, God
said that Elijah would come again--to accomplish his mission (Mal 4:5).
The return of Elijah was fulfilled in the person of John the Baptist (Lk
1:17; Mt 11:14; 17:13).  He was the person who had the responsibility to
establish the base of faith for the Messiah.

John the Baptist was standing on the foundation of a forty-period of
separation from Satan, the four-hundred-year Period of Preparation for
the Messiah, which had begun with the prophet Malachi.  Through his life
of asceticism, John was able to separate from Satan and establish the
Foundation of Faith.  John lived in the wilderness eating locusts and
honey, concerned and thinking about God's Will; so the priests and
people of Israel looked on his life of faith with the greatest respect.

John the Baptist was also in the Abel position for the Foundation of
Substance, that is, he was the central person for establishing the
Foundation of Substance.  The mission of Moses had passed to Joshua,
then to the prophets, including Elijah, and finally to John the Baptist.
Therefore, John the Baptist was standing in the position of Moses. Moses
had been the central person for the Foundation of Faith (in the parents'
position) and the central person for the Foundation of Substance (in the
position of the second-born).  Likewise, John the Baptist had the dual
mission of establishing the Foundation of Faith and standing in the Abel
position as the central person for the Foundation of Substance.

The national Foundation of Substance would have been established by the
Israelites' loving and obeying John the Baptist, who was their national
Abel.  God had already prepared the chosen people to believe absolutely
in John as a special prophet of God.  Everyone knew that he was a great
man of God, because they had heart of the angel's prophecy about his
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Date       12-02-91 10:20:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Exegetical Help Wanta

 PM>    Isn't it 100% true that the God of Heaven says
 PM>    He will leave them (unrepentant sinners)
 PM>    neither root nor branch, that they shall be
 PM>    dust under your feet?         Mal. 4

 It is also %100 ture that Jesus was describing the heart of God when he
 said:

 LUK 15:4    What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of
 them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after
 that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found [it], he
 layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he
 calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice
 with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that
 likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more
 than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.


 2PE 3:9     The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men
 count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any
 should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 Even fallen parents would try to rescue their chilren who were suffering
 how much more does our perfect parent, God, try to save His children
 from suffering.

 PM>    Here's one for you: "Is Christ still suffering?"

 Yes Christ is suffering because everyone suffers when they are rejected.
 Christ wanted the people to love him:

 MAT 10:37   He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy
 of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of
 me.

                                   BUT

 JOH 1:11    He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 LUK 13:34   O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and
 stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered
 thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her]
 wings, and ye would not!

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Date       12-02-91 10:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     IS JESUS ALSO MICHAEH

 PM> PB>  When the body dies, the 'breath of life' separates
 PM> PB>  from the body, and then has conscious existence of the
 PM> spirit PB>  world.             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 PM>     You mean the body is merely the clay prisonhouse?

 No, it is not a prisonhouse it is like a flower pot which grows the
 flower that will eventually go to the spiritual world.  This is the
 reason it is very important to keep your 'flower pot' (physical body)
 pure.  If you commit immoral deeds it will deform your flower (spiritual
 body) and once you are in the spiritual world you cannot easily grow so
 you are stuck on the level you have reached while on earth.

 MAT 18:18   Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth
 shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall
 be loosed in heaven.

 JOH 14:2    In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not
 [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.



 Since the growth of the spiritual body REQUIRES give and take action
 with a physical body, we find examples of people who died without
 reaching perfection retruning to the earth to work with/for Chirst:

 MAR 9:4  And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were
          talking with Jesus.

 MAT 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints
           which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his
           resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto
           many.


 God works to accomplish the total Dispensation for Restoration by
 calling many individuals and giving each the portion of work that is
 suitable for him.  As the Dispensation progresses and a new central
 person is chosen for a mission, God progressively broadens the scale of
 the dispensation, expanding it from the individual level to the levels
 of the family, the nation, and the world.  A person who dies without
 completing his mission must return and cooperate with a person on earth
 who has the same type of mission and the same spiritual disposition.
 From this mission-oriented viewpoint, the physical self of the person on
 earth becomes the physical self for the returning spirit person as well.
 In this sense, the person on earth becomes the "second coming" of the
 returning spirit person.  When viewed with spiritual eyes, the person on
 earth could seem to be the reincarnation of the spirit person who is
 cooperating with him.

 For this reason in the Last Days many people will appear claiming to be
 Elijah, Buddha, Confucius, or the Olive Tree.  It would seem that the
 theory of trans-migration, or reincarnation, is the result of
 interpreting what is happening based on appearances, without knowing the
 principles of returning resurrection.

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Date       12-02-91 10:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     IS JESUS ALSO MICHAEH

 PM>     I think I am saying that unless you have oxygen being
 PM>     circulated in brain tissue, no thinking process is possible.
 PM>
 PM>     "The living know that they shall die, the dead know not
 PM>     anything."
 PM>     And so, a future resurrection is *absolutely* essential, if
 PM>     we are going to ever think again.

 Sounds like the JW view of death ?    Do you think Jesus was confused
 when he spoke about Lazarus ?

 LUK 16:24   And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and
 send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool
 my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 It seems to me that the only explanation you could offer for the
 countless experiences with evil spirits throughout the Bible is that
 they were speaking of angels.  If evil spirits are not angels then they
 would have to be the spirits of evil people who had died and went into
 the spiritual world.   'Evil spirits' that were were mentioned over
 20 times in the Bible but it does not say they were angels. In fact, Acs
 23:9  says 'spirit OR an angel' making a distinction that spirits can
 talk.  This tells me that spirits of departed people can think.  Most
 talking being do have the capacity to think. <grin>


 ACS 23:9    And there arose a great cry: and the scribes [that were] of
 the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this
 man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight
 against God.  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


 Another scripture we should consider is:

 Hebrews 11:39-41 says, "And all these [saints of the Old Testament age],
 though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised
 [admission to the Kingdom of Heaven], since God had foreseen something
 better [the Kingdom of Heaven] for us [persons on earth], that apart
 from us they [spirit persons] should not be made perfect".

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Date       12-02-91 11:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     MOSES.6

 PM> TB> ... Thus, the two tablets, as symbols
 PM> TB> of Adam and Eve, also symbolize Jesus and the Holy Spirit,
 PM>
 PM>    Who would have believed it?

 Maybe this will help :

 HEB 9:11    But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come,
 by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is
 to say, not of this building;

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Date       12-02-91 11:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Stamper
Subject      who is god ?

 CS> > You don't yet understand these guys believe they have the
 CS> direct line to
 CS> > God and the idea of working with someone like a priest,
 CS> minister, rabbi, > or holy man is really foreign to them.
 CS> That's really funny since your idea of knowing God is bowing
 CS> down before Rev. Moon?  Isn't that what your're saying?  Of
 CS> course it is!  Behind your endless posting is your belief in
 CS> Rev. Moon.  How come you never discuss HIM???

 MAT 7:6      Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye
 your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and
 turn again and rend you.

 CS> > The single thing in my faith that separates it most from
 CS> traditional > christianity is the understanding that a person
 CS> cannot come to God > alone.
 CS> ...he needs to bow before Rev. Moon, right?  Spare us, PLEASE!

 See  ^



 I wish I could share more about Rev. Moon but the hostility like you
 represent makes it senseless.  If you only knew what Rev. Moon was doing
 right now and could understand the siginfance of where he is and who he
 is meeting with it would blow you compeletly away... you would cry for
 days.

 A person like Jesus and Rev. Moon does not come to earth often and when
 they do, fallen man jeers, redicules and persecutes them ...then future
 generations grieve for their ancestors mis-behavior.  If Rev. Moon is a
 man of God what do you suppose historians 1,000 years from now will say
 about you when they read this message ?

 ACS 5:34    Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named
 Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people,
 and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto
 them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as
 touching these men.

 ACS 5:38    And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them
 alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to
 nought:  But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be
 found even to fight against God.

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Date       12-03-91 10:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Covenant

 PM>     In one screen or less, WHAT's the "covenant"?

 A covenant is a contract that spells out the different parties
 responsibilities and what each party stans to gain by keeping their part
 of the agreement.

 What does God gain through a covenant He makes with man ?

 What are God's goals ?

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Date       12-03-91 10:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Jesus/GOD

 PM> JF>> Only GOD can forgive sins, but Jesus also forgave sins.
 PM>
 PM> TB>  MAR 2:10    But that ye may know that the Son of man hath
 PM> TB>  power on earth to forgive sins,
 PM>
 PM>     Looks like you two are in agreement.
 PM>
 PM>     I like the logic here displayed.          phil

 Me too !

 JOH 5:22    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all
 judgment unto the Son:

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Date       12-03-91 10:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Jesus/GOD

 JF>   I do have one question for you, You say that moon was told by
 JF> Jesus about this new revelation of the scriptures. What I want
 JF> to know is who is his witness that he actually talked to Jesus?

 Do you believe God spoke to Moses ?   Who witnessed the scene at the
 burning bush ?

 As a matter of fact Jesus said :

 ACS 22:9    And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were
             afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to
             me.

 People who were present did not even hear God speaking to Jesus.



 I just want to let you know that I am a witness that Rev. Moon is
 teaching the message Jesus gave to him.  If you are ever asked why you
 did not listen to that message you cannot say that I did not testify to
 you that Rev. Moon received a revelation from God through Jesus Christ.

 If you go out and witness about Jesus and a person rejects your witness
 then does that person have the excuse that they never heard the truth ?

 I am testifying to you that I invested more than you can know in order
 to verify the truth of the Divine Principle.  I prayed and fasted till
 God showed me clearly that this was the truth and a valid revelation
 from Him.  Merely wishing and wondering if this revelation is true is
 not sufficient to move God.  God is not going to waste His time with
 anyone who is not serious.  That is why Jesus told YOU :

 MAR 13:35   Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the
 house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the
 morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

 Jesus predicted his followers may not recognize the second coming :

 LUK 18:8   ... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find
 faith on the earth?


 and Timothy said :

 1TH 5:17    Pray without ceasing.

 All I want you to do is try it.  If you convince God that you will be
 serious and take responsibility He will speak to you as He has done to
 me and millions of people who now understand the Divine Principle.

 I fear that America is loosing God's blessing.  Thousands of students
 are attending Divine Principle workshops right now in Russia.  If
 another nation responds to God's will we know what will happen to
 America :

 MAT 21:43∙Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken
 from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 America is declining rapidly because God raised up America and blessed
 us for a purpose.  Now what is America doing with that blessing ?

 A whore is one who sells herself out for pleasure and selfish
 gratification.∙That is exactly what America has done.


 REV 17:1∙And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven
 vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto
 thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

 REV 17:15   And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where
 the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and
 tongues.
 REV 17:16∙And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these
 shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall
 eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
 REV 19:2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged
 the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and
 hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

 What can we do to save America ?   Christians are busy trying to perfect
 their own deomination.∙Christ's body is in sad shape being divided
 into 400 + denominations.  Someone must come and bring unity. When your
 house is on fire you call someone from outside to come in and help.  If
 you are sick you call upon a doctor to come and administer the cure.
 That is why Rev. Moon founded the Unification Church.  Rev. Moon wants
 the body of Christ to be united and healthy enough to be able to muster
 a force that will be capable of dealing with Satan's force on a world
 wide level.

 The only thing I can find that Rev. Moon is teaching that freaks out
 fundamental Christians is that God wants to be a grand father. This
 means that Jesus should have married and perfected an ideal sinless
 family.  I can't see why the idea that Jesus was supposed to fulfill the
 blessings originally given to Adam is so alarming.

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Date       12-03-91 11:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    The "virgin" Mary

 JF>  Jesus could *NOT* have been born from sin, this "theory" is
 JF> totally false and a lie.

 So you believe that Sex is sinful ?

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Date       12-03-91 21:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Reynolds
Subject    Jesus/God

 PR> > JF> No man could pay the price for the sins of the world, only
 PR> GOD > JF> could paid the price, but Jesus did that also.
 PR> TB> You make it sound like it was God who sinned.  Why should
 PR> God be the one
 PR> TB> to pay for my sins ?  Who needs to repent me and you  OR God
 PR> ? TB> LUK 13:3    I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye
 PR> shall all TB> likewise perish.
 PR> TB> REV 2:16    Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
 PR> and will TB> fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

 PR> You are correct in who needs to repent, by why do you make this
 PR> claim that Jesus' vicarious death implicates Jesus in sin?

 Where did make that implication ? I maintain that Jesus never sinned or
 did anything to caused anyone to sin.

 PR> Don't these make it obvious? Have you not read these before?

 I'm not sure what point you wanted to make.  Christ is the
 mediator between man and God.  However we must repent and purify
 our hearts in order to stand in the presence of Jesus or God:


 PSA 24:3    Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall
 stand in his holy place? PSA 24:4    He that hath clean hands, and a
 pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn
 deceitfully. PSA 24:5    He shall receive the blessing from the LORD,
 and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

 LUK 14:26   If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and
 mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his
 own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 I simply don't see any allowance for impurity.    There is this constant
 'air' in the Open Bible conference that Jesus forgave us and everything
 is fine. The price is paid so we can keep on partying !  But that will
 only lead to hell.  The way of the providence of restoration is a course
 of separating from the fallen world.  It is the same thing as a once
 married woman getting remarried.  It is like a woman who lives with
 Satan getting remarried to God.  When a bride remarries a new husband,if
 she thinks of her former husband the new husband would not like it.
 Christianity seems to think that God should come down to their level
 rather than raising their level up to meet God's standard.  No wonder
 they don't like Rev. Moon or his teaching.  He understands that the
 desire of the Messiah is to pay the price for others. That is how
 restoration works and that is how his followers must think.  The Old
 Testament was an era of offerings, the age where you sacrifice all
 things ...when material was sacrificed.   The New Testament period is
 when children had to offer themselves as sacrifices.  Yet we find
 christianity saying "Jesus did it all ...I don't need to do anything."

 Christianity is weak because the mind wins over the body. Therefore we
 must change.  What must we do to reverse this ? How can the mind and
 body become one ?  Religions have created doctrines to do this by making
 the body weak and the mind strong.  Religion teaches us to discipline
 and subjugate the body centering on the mind.  After the mind subjugates
 the body the foundation to receive the messiah is established.

 Do you understand this ?

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Date       12-03-91 21:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         ALL
Subject    JESUS.3

                        Satan's Three Temptations

In Matthew 4:1-10 we read that Satan tested Jesus through three
temptations.  Satan's original purpose in attacking Jesus with these
temptations was not to test any external conditions or Jesus's power to
perform miracles, but was specifically intended to prevent Jesus from
accomplishing his purpose as the Messiah.  Because the Messiah comes to
restore the world intended at the time of creation, which was not
established because of Satan, from Satan's point of view, the Messiah's
fulfilling his purpose would mean Satan's eternal destruction.  Since
the Kingdom of Heaven is based on The Principle, and since Adam had
failed by not following The Principle, Satan's temptations centered on
The Principle, and Jesus' answers had to be based on The Principle. More
specifically, the world which the Messiah must create is the world
intended at the time of creation, which is the world based on the
fulfillment of God's Three Blessings. Thus, Jesus had to realize God's
Three Blessings, and Satan's attempt to prevent Jesus from fulfilling
his purpose was through three temptations that were based on the Three
Blessings.
                          The first temptation
In the first temptation, Satan appeared before Jesus and said, "...'If
you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread'"
(Mt 4:3).  The stones in Satan's possession represented the broken
tablets of stone and the rock that had been struck twice by Moses,
Because of the faithlessness of the chosen people, Moses had broken the
tablets of stones and had struck the rock twice, providing the basis for
Satan to claim the rock.  The stones with which Satan tempted Jesus
symbolized Jesus himself as the true rock and the true tablet of stone
(1 Cor 10:4; Rev 2:17).
     When the chosen people became faithless, as they had become in the
wilderness, Satan was in a position to attack Jesus, who was the
incarnate Word that had ben symbolized by the tablets of stone.  Jesus
had to overcome these circumstances.  Satan know well that Jesus had
come into the wilderness to restore the rock, so Satan tempted Jesus to
change the rock to bread, because Jesus was as hungry as the faithless
Israelites had been at the time of Moses.  If Jesus had become faithless
and had abandoned his purpose of restoring the stone, choosing instead
to command the stone to become bread in order to fill his hungry
stomach, then Satan would have succeeded in preventing the Messiah from
accomplishing his purpose.  By keeping Jesus under his sovereignty,
Satan would have had possession of the stone forever.
     Jesus answer to this temptation was, "'..."Man shall not live by
bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God"'"
(Mt 4:4).  This means that even though man's physical body can live by
eating bread, his life would not be complete.  Man can become whole only
if, in addition, he lives by the bread of life, that is through Christ,
who is God's Word made flesh (Jn 6:35,51).  Jesus' answer to Satan's
first temptation means that even if he were then at the point of
starvation, bread for the physical body is not the real issue. Jesus had
to triumph over Satan's temptation and become the living bread of God's
Word, the bread capable of giving life to all mankind.
     Through his triumph over the first temptation, Jesus met the
condition for again establishing himself as the true incarnation of the
stones which had been lost to Satan in the wilderness because of the
faithlessness of the chosen people.  In other words, by overcoming this
temptation (from the position of John the Baptist), Jesus symbolically
restored the position of the Messiah, the model of the perfect person.
Through doing this, Jesus established the foundation for restoring God's
First Blessing to man, the first step toward accomplishing God's Purpose
for the Creation.
                         The second temptation
     In the second temptation, Satan set Jesus on the pinnacle of the
temple and said, "...'If you are the Son of God, throw yourself
down...'" (Mt 4:6).  Jesus referred to himself as a temple (Jn 2:19- 21)
and believers are also called temples of God (1 Cor 3:16). 1 Corinthians
12:27 tells us that believers are members of the body of Christ.
Therefore, we can understand that Jesus is the main temple and the
believers are the branch temples,  Satan's setting Jesus on the pinnacle
of the temple means that, as a result of Jesus' triumph over the first
temptation, Satan had to recognize Jesus' authority as the master of the
temple. Satan's urging Jesus to throw himself down from the top of the
temple was not to test Jesus' ability to perform miracles, but was to
tempt him to give up his position as master of the temple, to throw
himself down and be as a fallen man, thus putting an end to his
restoring people as branch temples.  Just as Satan dominated the world
as its false master after causing Adam's fall (2 Cor 4:4; Jn 12:31),
     Satan would have become the master of the temple in place of Jesus,
if Jesus (the Second Adam) had succumbed to this temptation. At this
point, Jesus said, "'..."You shall not tempt the Lord your God"'" (Mt
4:7). Satan is a fallen angel; a true human being is to have dominion
over the angels.  Therefore, a fallen angel was naturally supposed to be
under Jesus' dominion.  Although Satan may temporarily control the world
as its false master, his attempt to stand in the position of the lord of
the temple was a non-Principle act. Satan, a fallen angel, should not
have tried to tempt God.  Yet, he did not by tempting Jesus, for when
Jesus had triumphed over the first temptation, he had restored his
position as a true person and individual, and thus was the true temple
and body of God.
     Jesus' answer was a scolding to Satan for his non-Principle act,
and it meant that Satan should leave him and stop tempting God's
representative and true son.  Jesus was the main temple and the True
Father of mankind. By overcoming the second temptation, he established
the condition that would enable him to restore believers as branch
temples, that is, as his children.  Through overcoming this temptation,
Jesus established the foundation for restoring God's Second Blessing to
man, the second step toward fulfilling God's Purpose for the Creation.

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Date       12-04-91 07:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         C. Spurgeon
Subject      Exegetical Help WanWa

 CS> I'm a Christian. That is my religion.
 CS> I was saved reading The Bible only. I didn't even have someone
 CS> talking to me about Christ.

 How refreshing to find a Christian who doesn't believe in the rapture or
 the trinity.  Since neither of these words are mentioned in the Bible
 there is no way you could have been polluted by these concepts that came
 about in the later developments of Christianity.

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Date       12-04-91 07:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Roger Hepworth
Subject      Moderator

 RH> TB>  I forgot but I did hear he went to school and I have not
 RH> noticed the TB>  rules getting posted for several months now.
 RH> Since there doesn't se TB>  to be one maybe we should have an
 RH> election and choose from among the TB>  folks who have been here
 RH> for a long time.   But since that narrows th TB>  choices down
 RH> to me, Tim, and Ralph that may not be the best idea.<gri


 RH> lets see your campaign slogan.<grin>

 "The moon is the son."

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Date       12-04-91 07:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Vail Rodney
Subject    Resurrection          1/

 VR> TB> MAR 9:4  And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and
 VR> they TB> were talking with Jesus.
 VR> Notice the word "appeared" in Mark 9:4. This was a vision of the
 VR> future when
 VR> Christ has returned and resurrected Elias and Moses.
 VR> Notice also Mark 9:1. "there be some of them that stand here,
 VR> which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the Kingdom
 VR> of God come with power."

 Judging by Peter's reaction this was not a vision of things to come, it
 was a happening at that time.

 LUK 9:33    And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said
 unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three
 tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not
 knowing what he said. LUK 9:34    While he thus spake, there came a
 cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the
 cloud. LUK 9:35    And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This
 is my beloved Son: hear him.


 I think you can find other references about what happens to people after
 they die :


 ECC 9:3  This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the
          sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of
          the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their
          heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead.
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Uncious people don't have madness in their heart ?

 'Madness'  only exists in a state of 'consciousness'.

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Date       12-04-91 16:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> Not in this particular case.  Remember that there are two basic
 RC> types of covenant: unilateral, or one-sided; and, bi-lateral, or
 RC> mutually beneficial.
 RC> God's covenant with man is of the first kind.  God has
 RC> everything and provides
 RC> it; man has nothing but himself, which he gives to his Lord.
 RC> The only conditionfor man is to give himself.  In return, God
 RC> provides restoration of all that was
 RC> his to begin with, and much more; similar to what King David did
 RC> with Mephiboshbecause of his covenant with his father, Jonathan.

 First I don't believe there is any such thing as a one sided covenant.
 Sure some covenants give one party an advantage such as a parent may
 make with their child to pay for their education if the child will only
 study and make good of the opportunity.  However the parent or God has
 something to gain.   I God's case it is man's behavior that God wants to
 modify.

 My point is that any covenant man has made with God always requires man
 to 'KEEP' his part.  In other words man has something to fulfill.
 Get it ?  Keep <-> Fulfill

 DEU 29:9  Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that
           ye may prosper in all that ye do.          ^^^^^^^^^^^

 Clearly, to me, God's covenant's have not been one sided at all.  A one
 sided covenant would not have any responsibility for man and man could
 not break such a covenant.  But is this the case ?  :

 DEU 31:16    And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with
 thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the
 gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them,
 and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


 RC>  Matthew  16:25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:
 RC> and  whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
 RC> And, contrary to the teachings of Moon, Jesus came into the
 RC> world to give his life:

 Let me just ask you.... If you had been there and everyone would have
 'chickened' out and refused to drive the nails into Jesus hands, would
 you have done it ?

 Since you know that Jesus was indeed the Christ there in no doubt in my
 mind that you could never have done anything to harm him.  I certainly
 would not have.

 Why do you insist on maintaining the idea that restoration requires
 suffering of the innocent ?  Aren't the wicked the ones that should be
 reformed ?  Do you know that Jesus said :

 MAT 9:13     But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy,
 and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners
 to repentance.

 Rev. Moon teaches that Jesus death was not the victory, his victory was
 his resurrection.   And he is right to say that if Jesus had established
 the true family of God that Adam failed to establish, we would need no
 second coming.

 I just wonder if you can see that a spiritual AND physical victory is a
 greater victory than a spiritual victory alone.  Jesus Christ had the
 power to father sinless children.  If he had been supported and given
 the opportunity to raise up a woman to become the bride of Christ
 physical salvation would have been a reality at that time.

 This is not rocket science chemistry.  A simple idea that is true and
 easy to understand.  Adam and Eve brought sin into the world.  Christ
 and his Bride will bring purity and true love into the world. True love
 and impure love cannot coexist.  Which do you think is the most powerful
 love ...pure love or impure love.

 REV 19:9    And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are
 called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These
 are the true sayings of God.

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Date       12-04-91 17:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 >  I know it is probably impossible for you to believe me but for the
 > record I want you to know that Rev. Moon is teaching what Jesus told
 > him.  In other words, Rev. Moon didn't come up with the idea that
 > Christ should be a parent simply because he though Christ was the most
 > qualified person in history to be a father and husband. Rev. Moon got
 > the idea that Jesus should have established a family because that is
 > what Jesus told him.

 RC> I don't believe that, and also, the bible does not support the
 RC> concepts Moon presents.

 I disagree. I find more support for Rev. Moon's teachings than the ones
 I propounded by fundamental christians.

 RC> Let me ask you a question in return: Why do you oppose the idea
 RC> that God prepared a sacrifice offering in the body of Jesus so
 RC> that all men could be saved?

 Because it is a better idea to stop procreating children of sin that are
 in need of salvation. Christ had that power.  If I can understand that
 it is a better idea to bring sinless children into the world than to try
 to fix each child that is born of fallen parents then surely God could
 comprehend such an idea and has most likely thought of it long before I
 was born.

 Again I ask you :  How about Satan ?  Would Satan care one way or the
 other if Christ married and fathered 10 or 15 sinless children like
 himself ?

 RC> There are two ways of looking at it. He could have had children
 RC> while on earth and let's say that they would have become sinless
 RC> messiah's.  Could they have sinned?

 Sure they could have sinned. Adam and Eve were sinless and they sinned.
 Jesus was tempted so he obviously could have sinned.  The potential to
 sin doesn't "cause" one to sin.  But the main point you are overlooking
 is that if you had a father such as Jesus Christ to guide and raise you,
 you would grow up knowing true love.  A person who had such parental
 support would not be as easily tempted to taste impure love.  You also
 forget that the only parenting Adam and Eve had was that of a jealous
 angel who misguided them.  How much better their chances to grow to
 perfection would have been had they been raised by True Parents ?


 RC> Now, God's way was for Jesus to offer himself, sinless, for the
 RC> sin of the whole world.  That way, once one's sins are remitted,
 RC> one can receive the Holy Spirit of God, and become "God's
 RC> perfect and sinless child."  Every time this new child
 RC> of God might sin, he can be cleansed.

 I'm sure you are aware of the fact that this 'cleansing' has never been
 sufficient to allow anyone to parent a sinless child ?   Something is
 still there because no matter how devout our parents may have been, we
 still have to be born again... because we were not born right the first
 time.

 RC> Moon may have heard from a spirit that called itself Jesus, but
 RC> it wasn't the Word of God.

 Hummm,  seems like I read about someone making the same mistake you have
 made :

 MAR 3:22     And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He
 hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
 LUK 11:15   But some of them said, He casteth out devils through
 Beelzebub the chief of the devils.


 On another subject...

 I would like to know what do you think the returning Jesus is supposed
 to do ?

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Date       12-04-91 17:52:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 RC> >  TB> What do you do with the scripture that says Jesus had the
 RC> power on > earth > to forgive sins?  Clearly this contradicts
 RC> the necessity for >  blood shed.
 RC> >
 RC> >  RC> I guess it would seem to, but's that
 RC> >  RC> not the case at all.  Believers also have
 RC> >  RC> the power to forgive sins on earth.
 RC> >
 RC> >  Are you implying that the forgivness Jesus gave the woman at
 RC> the well >  was no different than the forgivness she would have
 RC> had if I were > there
 RC> >  and said "Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more" ?
 RC> Am I implying what?  When Jesus was alive he was the only one
 RC> with the authorityas God's spiritual High Priest, to forgive
 RC> sins. When he died, his authority went to his spiritual descendants

 I have a feeling you are about to tell me that you have the same power
 to forgive sins that Jesus had ?

 RC> It is only after you enter the covenant by being born
 RC> again of the spirit that you receive the authority.

 So you have the same power to forgive sins that Jesus has.


 RC> The over-simplification is that of Moon.

 I can't figure why you continue to make these kinds of remarks.  Have I
 ever attacked your minister ?   Do you think it is cute or that it will
 help me to see your viewpoint ?   The first rule of success is to take
 action that is consistent with your goals.  What is your goal for me ?
 Will jeering Rev. Moon help to achieve that goal ?

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Date       12-04-91 18:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dale Robertson
Subject       What you believe

 DR> D There is one problem with this statement.It did not happen
 DR> that way and as Quoted earlier in Isaiah 53 it was foretold how
 DR> it was to happen. You are basing theology on ifs,and,buts. The
 DR> people did not accept Christ as the Messiah,so you
 DR> are going to have to live if the truth of history and the
 DR> present beliefs of people.

 No, I'm basing my theology on the will of God :

 JOH 6:29    Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God,
 that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 Could anyone who was doing the will of God murder His son ?  Could you
 have driven nails into someone who you knew was the true son of God ?

 DR> Jesus was not a father or a husband,so what is the point of this
 DR> theology. I agree with you that Jesus would have been the Best
 DR> father and husband the world has ever known,but it is not
 DR> Biblical or has any place in scripture.

 If you agree that Jesus would have been the best father and husband the
 world has ever known, don't you think God knew that too ?  Do you think
 God looked forward to the day He could bless His son in marriage ?

 REV 19:7    Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the
 marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
 REV 19:8    And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine
 linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of
 saints.   REV 19:9    And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they
 which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto
 me, These are the true sayings of God.

 TB>  The time has come in the history of man to go PAST salvation and
 TB>  forgiveness to RESTORATION and REDEMPTION. Please think about
 TB> purification and tell me how a God of PURE TRUE love can form a
 TB> reciprocal relationship with the impure hearts of fallen people.  He
 TB> simply cannot.  We therefore MUST purify ourselves.  Pure love and
 TB> impure love cannot co-exist.  Who should change ?  God or us ?
 TB> It is true that your sins are forgiven.  But are you ready to live
 TB> with  an absolute standard of goodness and unselfishness ? I am
 TB> sure that  such an high standard of purity will make me feel
 TB> judgement and the need for change.

 DR>  It is said that Christ came to save the world not condemn. I am
 DR> glad that you have become the mouth piece of God. You have told
 DR> us what God will do and what he can't.

 I was teaching from my understanding of scripture.  I think you evaded
 my questions.

 DR> Christ showed enormous
 DR> grace and mercy upon the sinful nature of people
 DR> who have accepted Christ(Christians). Over and over again he
 DR> teaches forgivenesto the sinful nature of man. There are
 DR> numerous examples that I could quote of the forgiving nature of
 DR> Christ,but there is not enough room to type.

 If you would, try to focus on any of those examples that indicate God is
 willing to compromise His standards or commandments and post them for
 future discussion.  I suppose I would be happy to find out I have not
 committed as many sins as I think I have.  <grin>

 DR>  1 Thes. 4:15-18 does not mention the word rapture,but plainly
 DR> gives the account that MOST Christians have given the name
 DR> rapture to.    Verse 17: "then we who are alive,who are
 DR> left,shall be caught up together
 DR> with them (referring to the dead in Christ) in the clouds to
 DR> meet the Lord in the air;and so we shall always be with the
 DR> Lord"   This is also before God will destroy
 DR> the Earth (2 Peter 3:) and build a new earth and have a new
 DR> Jerusalem. Why do you believe this is symbolic? It sounds pretty
 DR> plain and simple and God has the power,because he spoke this
 DR> world into existance.

 When Jesus prayed "Our Father who art in Heaven.."  and did not mean
 that God lives in the sky.  In the Bible Heaven and Clouds are symbolic
 for holiness and purity while Earth and Water is symbolic for fallen and
 corrupted.

 Let me give you a quiz so you may understand my view :

 Where was Satan cast down to ?   hint Rev chapter 12

 What is the symbology of the waters the whore sat upon in Rev 17:15 ?

 What is the symbology of the 'Cloud of witnesses' in Heb 12:1 ?


 In addition to the Bible, there are a lot of other questions we should
 consider.  For example :

 What needs to be restored ?  Man's physical location or his heart ?  If
 moving away from the earth purified a person then NASA would have
 created lots of messiah's.

 JER 17:9     The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and
 desperately wicked: who can know it?
 MegaMail -> Warning, Message Truncated!

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Date       12-04-91 22:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Jesus/GOD

 JF>  You never seem to answer my questions, how come. No answers?

 You must mean I don't give you satisfactory answers... the ones you want
 to hear.  I probably write more answers than anyone on this echo except
 Walter Copes.  You pretended that a revelation was invalid unless there
 were witnesses.  However when I showed you that here were no witnesses
 when Moses got the 10 commandments and when God spoke to Jesus you
 couldn't receive it.

 JF>  Paul said that if anyone preaches a gospel other than what he
 JF> teaches, then it is false. Jesus Himself came to Paul and turned
 JF> him from killing Christians. We have witnesses that Paul
 JF> actually did see and speak to Jesus.
 JF> So now we see you preaching moon's theories and all I want to
 JF> know is where is his witnesses that he actually spoke to Christ
 JF> Jesus and was taught by Him,

 I have answered you by pointing out that God has historically delivered
 many many messages to people in a quiet way that only the person He was
 speaking to could hear.  Have you ever heard God speak to you ?  Did
 anyone witness the event ?

 JF> what he is preaching? moon is claiming to be the third christ,

 No,  but I will proclaim that Rev. Moon is the return of Christ.
 How's that ?

 JF> so WHERE ARE THE WITNESSES? I don't want a list of converts,
 JF> 'cause that only proves human
 JF> weakness to follow anything sweet smelling rose that comes
 JF> along.

 Yeah, you spend several years of your life including the freezing
 weather of any northern USA Kmart parking lot with 'sweet smelling
 roses' for sale while being persecuted and jeered and we'll see how long
 your human weakness stands up to following something you don't
 understand.   You couldn't do it !

 JF> It's also an interesting fact that Christ Jesus didn't
 JF> write one single word of the Bible, yet all (*every one*) of the
 JF> false religions have some man writing the books they preach
 JF> from.

 Silly, silly,  don't you know the New Testament received the same warm
 welcome before those books became canonized ?  Have you studied any
 of the history of your religion at all ?

 JF> Either a "better" translation of the Bible, or "new"
 JF> insights into it or some completely "new" way to become gods.

 Are you describing the New Testament or the Divine Principle ?

 JF>  You, unfortunatly, have been duped by a skillful actor,

 Or I really found God thought the teachings of Rev. Moon.

 JF> am sure, that you are *not* as secure in your "religion of moon"
 JF> as you would like us to believe. It also proves
 JF> to me that you are fighting the truth of the messages posted to
 JF> you and the Holy Spirit is convicting you for preaching a false
 JF> gospel.

 I suppose some things are easily 'proven' to you.   You entered into
 discussion with me with the preconceived notion that I was 'duped' by
 Rev. Moon.  You have not fairly listened to any of my messages with an
 open mind.   I don't know what your goal is for me but I do my goal for
 you is that you can understand we are living in the last days and there
 are opportunities available right now that have never before been
 available in history.  I'm really sorry that I do not have the ability
 to teach you what I know in a way you can receive it.  But in the end
 you will remember that I did try.

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Date       12-04-91 23:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    The "virgin" Mary

 JF>  Did you go to school to be able to turn things around like you
 JF> do?

 No, I didn't know there was a school that taught that course ?

 Anyway,
 I simply posted something about a hot issue an it was from a book
 written by Dr. Weatherhead  called "The Christian Agnstic" (1965)

 I don't really care to defend his position although it does sound like
 the most reasonable explanation for the fact that no one in the New
 Testament makes any deal about Jesus being born from a virgin. It simply
 appears to me that John, Paul, Luke, and Mark didn't know about the
 miraculous birth of Jesus that Christians made as a center or their
 faith several centuries later.


 As for your mention about Jesus being born in sin if his mother was not
 a virgin, I wonder if you believe Mary was sinless ?

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Date       12-04-91 23:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Tom Grelinger
Subject    The virgin Mary

 TG> You are trying to make an argument from silence.

 Well at least you got to blow off some steam.   I just can't figure out
 why this virgin stuff is so important to you since it was not important
 to people such Paul, John, Mark and Luke who were giving accounts of
 Jesus and his ministry ?   You have written and said more about it in
 one line of one message than they did in the whole Bible.  Did they
 forget to write that their master, lord and God was born of a virgin or
 did they not want anyone to know ?

 Do you think Mary was sinless ?   Does the loss of one's virginity
 necessarily make them or their child sinful ?  What if one parent was a
 virgin and the other... well they wouldn't have any children would they?
 <grin>

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Date       12-04-91 23:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         ALL
Subject    JESUS.4

                           The third temptation

In the third temptation, Satan led Jesus to a very high mountain and
showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.  Then he said,
"...'All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me'"
(Mt 4:9).  Of course, in reality, there is no mountain where all the
kingdoms of the world can be seen.  Then, what does Satan's leading
Jesus to this very high mountain mean?

Because of his fall, Adam had lost his authority as lord of the Creation
and had come to be dominated by Satan; so Satan had naturally become the
ruler of the Creation in place of Adam (Rom 8:20).  God sent Jesus to be
the perfected Adam and, thus, the lord of the Creation (God put all
things in subjection under Christ (1 Cor 15:27). Satan knew this, and
since Jesus had been victorious in the first and second temptations,
Satan had to place Jesus in the position of lord of the Creation.  This
was the significance of Jesus' being led to the mountain where all the
kingdoms of the world and their glory can be seen.  Then, Satan tempted
Jesus by offering to let Jesus be lord of the Creation if Jesus would
yield to him (Satan).  Satan wanted the second Adam to yield to him as
the first Adam had done in the Garden of Eden.

Jesus replied, "'..."You shall worship the Lord your God and him only
shall you serve"'" (Mt 4:10).  Angels were created to be ministering
spirits (Heb 1:14), to worship and serve God.  Jesus' answer recalls
this principle that Satan, a fallen angel should worship and serve God.
Naturally, in accordance with this principle, Satan should also worship
and serve Jesus, for Jesus was the temple of God.

By overcoming the first two temptations, Jesus had established the
foundation that would enable him to restore to man God's First and
Second Blessings.  On this foundation he also had to restore to man
God's Third Blessing, man's dominion over the Creation.  Although Jesus
might have gained all of the kingdoms of the world and their glory if he
had yielded to Satan, his purpose as the Messiah would not have been
fulfilled.  Jesus answered that although Satan was offering him
sovereignty over the Creation, he would not fall down and worship Satan,
for he (Jesus) was the temple of God.  Jesus' responses were based on
The Principle, and thus he was victorious. By overcoming the third
temptation, Jesus was able to meet the conditions for restoring man's
dominion over the Creation.  In other words, he established the
foundation for restoring to man God's Third Blessing.  Thus, through
enduring the forty-day fast and overcoming Satan's three temptations,
Jesus, in place of John the Baptist, established the Foundation of
Faith.

Jesus' forty days of fasting and praying for the Foundation of Faith and
his triumph over Satan's temptations established Jesus as the central
person and Abel for the nation Foundation of Substance. Consequently, if
the people of Israel, who were in the Cain position, had believed,
served, and obeyed Jesus, who was in the Abel position substituting for
John the Baptist, the nation Foundation of Substance would have been
established.  This Foundation of Substance and the Foundation of Faith
together would have constituted the Foundation for the Messiah, and that
would have enabled Jesus to shift from the position of John the Baptist
to the Messiah's position.

If Jesus had been able to secure this victorious foundation on earth,
then he would have been able to give total rebirth to mankind and he
would have been able to completely fulfill God's Purpose for the
Creation.  Therefore, Jesus revealed secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven in
his speaking and testified to himself through the performance of
miracles--all to make his people believe in him and obey him (Jn 10:38).
Because it concerned the Foundation of Substance for the national
Foundation for the Messiah, it was very important for the leaders of
Judaism and the people to serve Jesus and follow his will, since he was
in the Abel position.  However, the leaders of the people, such as the
priests, the Levites, and the scribes, were in the front ranks of those
who became faithless toward Jesus.  The general populace also fell into
faithlessness and even began to slander Jesus. And even from the early
stages of Jesus' ministry, the Pharisees declared that he was a sinner
(Jn 9:16,24), though he was actually without fault.  On several
occasions the people took up stones to throw at Jesus, even though he
was teaching them the truth (Jn 8:59; 10:31).  Jesus even had to take
refuge for some time, because of the people's conspiracies to kill him
(Jn 7:1; 8:40).

Meanwhile, Satan, who had been defeated in the temptation, had departed
from Jesus "until an opportune time" (Lk 4:13).  Satan's departure from
Jesus until an opportune time implies that Satan did not leave Jesus
completely and would be able to come before Jesus again.  Since Jesus
had overcome Satan's tests, Satan could no longer attack him directly;
so Satan had to try to invade through the people, and he centered on the
leaders who had fallen into faithlessness, finally focusing his efforts
on Judas Iscariot. 1 Corinthians 2:8 says, "None of the rulers of this
age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the
Lord of glory."  The people's attitude toward Jesus went beyond simple
ignorance about him.  They developed a strong feeling of disbelief and
distrust toward him, to the point where they feared him and wanted to be
rid of him, and they crucified him.

Because of this faithlessness of the people, the Foundation of Substance
was not established.  Accordingly, the Foundation for the Messiah was
not established in the second course of the world-wide restoration of
Canaan.  Naturally, the second course of the world-wide restoration of
Canaan also failed.

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Date       12-05-91 21:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Doug Palmer
Subject     ??

 DP> So, there is but one 'true God', Jesus is not that God--so Jesus
 DP> must be less than 'true God', right? If there is but one 'true'
 DP> God, and that God is Jehovah--then either Jesus is Jehovah, or
 DP> He is 'untrue.' Would you say then that He is an
 DP> 'untrue' god? Is that more acceptable than 'false'?

 I know Carla made a blunder when she said that there were several gods
 and listed Jesus with money, sex, and Satan but I don't think her
 writing style or unclarity would be proof that she loves Jesus any less
 than any of us.  Your underlying point seems to be that you love Jesus
 more that her because you believe he is the one true God, Jehovah that
 created the universe.  Do you think Jesus is God the Father ?  Probably
 you have a distinction between Jesus and God the Father in your faith.
 Should Carla criticise you for having a separate classification, or hint
 that you think Jesus is an untrue or false figure in your scheme of the
 Godhead ?

 When you maintain there is one God and then go on to talk about God the
 father + God the Son + God the Holy Spirit it does appear to her ( and
 many other people who love God ) that you are flirting with polytheism.

 Is this difficult to understand ?

 I think she is as worried about you forgetting the first commandment as
 you are about her not proper comprehending the Godhead and giving the
 measure of devotion you feel is required to all positions/parties.

 MAT 5:9     Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the
             children of God.

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Date       12-05-91 21:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         ALL
Subject    JESUS.5

                        Results of John's failure

Because of the faithlessness of John the Baptist, the first course of
the world-wide restoration of Canaan had ended in failure.  Next, Jesus,
himself, had tried to establish the Foundation for the Messiah. However,
because the people did not follow him. and especially because his
disciples became faithless, the second course of the world-wide
restoration of Canaan also failed.  Therefore, Jesus had to go the way
of the cross.  In John 3:14, Jesus says, "'And as Moses lifted up the
serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up....'"
When the people with Moses were bitten by fiery serpents and began to
die, God directed Moses to raise up a bronze serpent in order to provide
a way for the people's salvation.  In the same way, when the people at
Jesus' time became faithless, God then had to ask Jesus to go the way of
the cross.

What is the meaning of the cross?  As was already explained in "The
Purpose of the Messiah," Jesus' messianic purpose was to complete the
dispensation for salvation, that is, to fulfill the Purpose of the
Creation.

Man was created with a physical self and a spirit self, and man fell
both physically and spiritually.  Thus the salvation should also be for
both the physical and the spiritual aspects of man.  When we say that we
absolutely believe in Jesus and we obey Jesus this means that we are
fulfilling the ideal of becoming one body with him.  Jesus spoke of this
when he compared himself to a vine and the believers to branches (Jn
15:5), and when he said, "'In that day you will know that I am in my
Father, and you in me, and I in you'" (Jn 14:20). Unfortunately, the
people did not believe in Jesus and did not become one with him.  As a
result, God had to allow Satan to take the physical body of Jesus to
indemnify mankind's sin of faithlessness. Thus Jesus died on the cross.

Since Jesus is the root of life for all mankind, Satan's invasion of
Jesus' physical body means that even saints who believe in Jesus and
become one with him cannot avoid satanic invasion of their physical
bodies (Rom 7:22,23).  No matter how faithful believers may be, their
bodies are still within the realm of Stan's invasion.  Thus, they have
to pray constantly (1 Thess 5:17), and their children still have
Original Sin.

Because of the crucifixion, mankind lost the physical body of the savior
and thus lost its physical object of faith and could not receive
physical salvation.  Therefore, the third course of the world- wide
restoration of Canaan could not be started as a substantial course on
both the physical and the spiritual planes.  Instead, this course of the
world-wide restoration of Canaan was a spiritual one and was centered on
the resurrected Jesus.

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Date       12-06-91 07:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      IS JESUS ALSO MICHACH

 PM> TB>  Since the growth of the spiritual body REQUIRES give and
 PM> take TB>  action with a physical body, we find examples of
 PM> people who TB>  died without reaching perfection retruning to
 PM> the earth to TB>  work with/for Chirst:
 PM>
 PM>     That is not the view I hold.       phil

 Well, within a hundred years or so we both will know who is right on
 this one.

 If our spiritual body needs nothing from our physical body for growth
 then there is really no need to modify our behavior.  Whatever we do
 would not be recorded in our spiritual body.   Everyone will get a halo!

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Date       12-06-91 08:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      IS JESUS ALSO MICHACH

 PM>     Calling the dead "[spirit persons]" suggests to me that you
 PM>     don't really feel they are really dead at all...
 PM>
 PM>              ...in which case a bodily resurrection
 PM>                     is not really that important.

 Correct.  What man lost at the time of the fall was the pure true love
 of God.  The most precious love.  Love is life, without it we are dead.
 those who go into the spirit world with undeveloped love are dead.
 Satan's love is dead love.  We can look at ourselves and check how much
 do I embody the love of God.  The light that comes from God is pure,
 precious love, it is a skin touch relationship of love with pure God.
 Also one is able to communicate with God, you can talk to him and you
 can hear him talk to you.  To be dead is to cut off from this
 relationship with God.  When a man passes into the spirit, whatever
 level he was able to grow in heart to God at that time is the level of
 spirit world he will be at when he enters there.

 MAT 18:18   Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth
 shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall
 be loosed in heaven.

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Date       12-06-91 10:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Tim Of_angle
Subject     James White

 TO> HS> Hey Hey, Jason flaming is not allowed on this echo either...
 TO> HS> For Mike Wallace
 TO> HS> Moderator
 TO> Neither is impersonating a moderator, Harvey.
 TO> For Mike Wallace Moderator (hey, if you can do it, anybody
 TO> can...)

 Give Harvey a break, there aren't any cults on his conference to
 moderate so he comes here for a little action once in a while. In other
 words, his heaven is kinda lonesome.

 ...However, it did look like he is ready to kinda 'muscle' in and run
 all the rats out of here. <grin>

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Date       12-06-91 10:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Doug Palmer
Subject     Moderator

 DP> Mike Wallace is listed as 1:103/136 and is listed on my NodeList
 DP> as '(DOWN)'.
 DP> I'll send some NetMail tonight to check on things. We may yet
 DP> require an election--though I sure hope not.

 Well, if it comes to an election, I nominate Jim Taylor if he is still
 around and will have the job.

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Date       12-06-91 11:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Harvey Smith<314-227-6885
Subject    Open Bible Rules 2

 HS> Thanks for reposting the rules.  MIke's system is temporarily
 HS> down, and hence
 HS> i appreciate that you have reposted the rules of the echo..  I
 HS> am in the process of contacting him and getting some feedback as
 HS> to how to proceed with the echo...

 I was not the one who reposted the rules. But your message came to me
 anyway.   If fidonet does indeed require a moderator to keep this echo
 on the backbone, I suggest we elect one.  Mike has not been around for
 several months.   I don't suppose you want to vote for me ?  Here is my
 campaign slogan :

 The Moon is the Son !       <grin>

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Date       12-06-91 11:07:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Vail Rodney
Subject    Resurrection

 VR> I fail to see your point, unless you are saying that because
 VR> Peter wanted to make three tabernacles, that this somehow means
 VR> Moses and Elias are alive.
 VR> Visions and apparitions only 'seem' real.

 I fail to see any point in several authors of different books of the New
 Testament mentioning this if it were not an event that actually took
 place.   You seem to be saying that Moses and Elias were not really
 talking to Jesus ?   You say their experience 'only seemed to be real'.
 It was so real they wanted to build a tabernacle for Moses and Elias.


 VR> If your thoughts perish, you can't think. You are dead. You are
 VR> asleep in the grave, awaiting a resurrection. If you can't
 VR> think, there is no awareness
 VR> of time. Therefore, when a person dies, the next thought they
 VR> will experience or be aware
 VR> of will be when they are brought out of their graves.

 Are you afraid of ghost ?   What is the reason you seek to support your
 belief that people are not conscious in the spiritual world after they
 die ?   Would it have a devastating effect on your theology if you found
 out that people do remain conscious after death ?  I certainly don't
 think it would slow down the JW faith if they dropped this idea. But I
 do realize that I'm on the outside looking in.

 I realize you may believe that all spiritual interaction between man and
 the spiritual world is between man and angels.  Are only evil angels
 allowed to communicate/tempt/deceive man, or can good angels also
 interact with humans in a way to support God's providence for
 restoration ?    I think your founder had a revelation when your faith
 was founded.  Did he have contact with the spiritual world ?  I simply
 don't know, but I do the Good Book is filled with references to the
 'angel of the Lord' and most all of the book of Daniel and Revelation
 was the result of man's interaction with a spiritual being.

 If you are interested in my opinion, I believe that your founder realize
 that at least 90% of the people who have lived were not so interested in
 promoting a godly way of life.  When these less than ideal people died
 and went into the spiritual world, they remained selfish.  Now if you
 communicate with spiritual world the chances of finding one of the few
 folks like Moses and Jesus or any saint, out of the estimated 25 billion
 people who have once lived on earth, are not too good.  In light of the
 fact the most probably experience and guidance you would gain from
 interaction with spirits of departed people would not be helpful, it is
 better to leave them alone.  In other words you are in the subject
 position and they must work through you if they want to be restored.  If
 you started taking advice from the common spiritual being you most
 likely would start doing whatever they did while they were on earth and
 that would be drinking and fornicating.

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Date       12-06-91 20:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Covenant 3

 JF>    Jesus has already paid the price for sin, for anyone that
 JF> accepts him. So there isn't any reason for Christians to
 JF> "forgive sins".

 I suppose you are right but I still find it easier to repent for sins
 that that I have already committed than the ones I am going to commit.

 JF> They are already
 JF> forgiven. It is our job to spread the Gospel of Christ Jesus.
 JF> Once a person accepts Him, then their sins are forgiven.

 You mean if I accept Jesus my future sins are forgiven ?

 Is there any need for purification and holiness and righteousness ?
 What about obeying the commandments and getting the rewards to eat from
 the tree of life  and...

 MAT 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father
 with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his
 works.


 JF>  So in a way, YES, we have the power to forgive sin, by bringing
 JF> a person to Christ. This is not the same power that Christ Jesus
 JF> had to forgive sin, since only GOD can forgive an offence
 JF> against Himself (Which HE did through Jesus's sacrifice).

 What comes after forgiveness ?   Is forgivness the final goal ?

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Date       12-06-91 20:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Jesus/GOD

 JF>      But Terry, moon is preaching a gospel that is different
 JF> than the Gospel that Paul teaches,

 I simply don't find that true.  But I do understand you have your own
 interpretation of what St Paul taught just as the Jewish leaders had
 their concepts of the Old Testament teachings.  They had difficult to
 the point they said the same thing you are saying :

 MAR 1:27    And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned
 among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is]
 this?

 MAR 11:28   And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things?
 and who gave thee this authority to do these things?

 LUK 20:2    And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest
 thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?

 Finally Jesus got tired of this line of questioning everywhere he went
 and he replied :

 LUK 20:8    And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what
 authority I do these things.


 JF> if we are to believe *any* of what moon preaches, we must
 JF> have proof beyond any doubt that it was Jesus that instructed
 JF> moon.


 First, I want to remind you that no one witnessed to God's words to
 Jesus but God gave many revelations (and showed people who sincerely
 asked) about His son.   Two things I would suggest you consider :

 Amos 3:7, which says, "'Surely the Lord God does nothing, without
 revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.'"

 MAT 7:7     Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;
 knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
 LUK 11:9    And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek,
 and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.


 Now if you simply reply "I have already found."  you do not understand
 the meaning of my message.


 I think you are looking for external proof ( of disproof ) about the
 teaching of Rev. Moon, but you must look inside yourself to find that
 answer.  All I can do is honestly assure you that I have tested the
 Divine Principle under the most difficult situations for over 15 years
 and God had showed me Rev. Moon is a man of God.  Since he is a man of
 God we have no choice but to listen to him if we want to mature in our
 spiritual growth.   What exactly do you think Rev. Moon is telling his
 followers ?  Do you want me to post or send you some of his speeches ?

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Date       12-06-91 20:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    The "virgin" Mary

 JF>   No, the Bible doesn't say she was. She certinly is now,
 JF> however.

 Too bad she isn't alive. We could use a few more people like Jesus
 today.

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Date       12-07-91 07:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Stamper
Subject     MOSES.6

 CS> In NO place in Scripture is it hinted that the Godhead or any
 CS> member is female.

 Try Gen 1:27

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Date       12-07-91 19:16:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> What you fail to see about this behavior-modification of God's
 RC> is that he tried exactly that for hundreds of years with the
 RC> Jews and their Law. After
 RC> he proved beyond a reasonable doubt that no man could refrain
 RC> from sin, he provided the final spirit-modification plan.

 So God is experimenting as He goes along.... I would guess you get alone
 well with the evolutionists ?


 RC> You are being hypothetical about real events.  What is your
 RC> point? In actual fact, God's plan worked, Satan believed he
 RC> needed to put Jesus to death, and by so doing God's plan of
 RC> salvation for all men went into effect.

 On the contrary... God's will was that the people believe in Jesus.
 (John 6:29) They did not do the will of God they did the will of Satan
 and MURDERED Jesus because no one that believed Jesus was the Christ
 could possibly have murdered him.


 RC> >  Why do you insist on maintaining the idea that restoration
 RC> requires >  suffering of the innocent?
 RC> Since I have never maintained that, why do you propose it?

 Was Jesus guilty of something ? Did he suffer ?  This idea that an
 innocent man must suffer in order for you and I to be restored is most
 certainly YOUR idea.  NOT mine !

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Date       12-07-91 19:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> > And he is right to say that if Jesus had established
 RC> > the true family of God that Adam failed to establish, we would
 RC> need no > second coming.

 RC> Or, he is very wrong.
 RC> As a result of Jesus doing what you and Moon propose, all
 RC> mankind would have
 RC> been condemned to the eternal death of hell (the sinless life of
 RC> Jesus and his children would have been testimony against the
 RC> rest of the world). How could a loving God condemn the rest of
 RC> mankind to the death of Hell for eternity?

 Do you really think Jesus would have taught his followers that it is
 alright for me to marry... but you can't.   Once Jesus and his Bride
 were established as True Parents then they would have look forward to
 blessing their followers (adopted children) in holy marriage.   This is
 why those who come to the marriage of the Lamb will be blessed.

 Your children wouldn't need to be reborn if they were born right the
 first time.  Why are you insisting on 'patching' over sin when you can
 remove it through holy matrimony ?   I think you must not comprehend
 this teaching ?

 RC> The only ones who would be saved would be those
 RC> who were without sin -- Jesus and his children.

 See here !  This is what I'm telling you... you don't understand that
 the reason children are born with sin is because they are born of
 fornication.  See John 8:44.  The only solution is for you and me and
 our spouses to get the blessing of marriage from God.  I think you would
 agree if Christ blesses a couple in marriage it would be ok with God.
 Can you understand the problem Satan would have in claiming the children
 from a blessed marriage belonged to him ?

 RC>  Ezekiel says
 RC> that the soul that sins shall surely die.  This is the death of
 RC> hell for eternity for those who don't
 RC> receive the forgiveness of Jesus.

 Forgiveness is a 'fix' for an existing problem.  The solution is to
 eliminate the problem then you don't need the forgiveness fix.

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Date       12-07-91 19:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Covenant

 PM> TB>  What does God gain through a covenant He makes with man ?
 PM> .
 PM>     Vindication.  (Providing man is smart enough to follow...)

 Why does God need this proof ?

 PM> .
 PM> TB>  What are God's goals ?
 PM> .
 PM>     To destroy sin without destroying mankind in the process.

 How can He destroy sin ?   You keep talking about forgiveness but
 finally you have gotten around to the subject I have been trying to get
 folks to think about for the past two years I have been pecking away at
 my keyboard.

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Date       12-07-91 19:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 RC> Evidently, God did understand that, and much better than you
 RC> present it. He understood it so well that he knew the only
 RC> people who could be saved, according to his own word, were those
 RC> who were of the immediate family of Jesus. Since that did
 RC> nothing for all the other millions of people of the world, he
 RC> did not implement that plan.

 You should think about what you are saying.  You do know that God worked
 through Marry to bring a sinless child into the world.  Now even if you
 think Marry was sinless that is even better because then you can get
 beyond that virgin birth myth and realize that at some point God worked
 through a living human couple... Mary's mother AND father to bring a
 sinless woman into the world.... either way you surely know that if God
 wanted to give you and your wife a sinless child it would not be beyond
 the limits of HIS ALMIGHTY POWER.   If Christ blessed you and your wife
 in holy matrimony I would conclude that you probably would be in a
 position to parent sinless children.... at least in a position where the
 probability was greater than someone who had not received the blessing
 of such a marriage.

 RC>  1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the
 RC> spirits whether  they are of God: because many false prophets
 RC> are gone out into the world.
 Do you have any idea what percentage of the worlds population
 understands Jesus was Christ ? I'm not suggesting you through caution to
 the wind.  But since you are among the limited few who has found that
 Jesus was the Christ and not a false prophet you have a much better
 chance to recognize a man of God who is living in your own lifetime...
 if only you can refrain from prejudging.      Maybe I should concentrate
 my efforts on people who place little or no value in spiritual things
 and leave you alone?

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Date       12-07-91 20:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    HE IS YOURS !

 Walter...  Walter... did you hear this ?    I'll let you straighten this
 poor kid out....<grin>

 DR>        Man is born with the sin nature. Salvation does not take
 DR> the sin nature away,so There is no way of reaching a pure love
 DR> without sin. We can try our best though to try and reach that
 DR> goal though.

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Date       12-07-91 20:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Reynolds
Subject    Jesus/god

 PR> Did Jesus die on the cross for the sins of man?

 Yes, but since Jesus had the power on earth to forgive sins the greater
 victory would have been gained if he had been supported and established
 an ideal family and fathered sinless children who could have grown up to
 become like him.

 PR> Do good works earn a person salvation or are they a response to
 PR> the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ?

 Good works and salvation can not be separated.  Salvation is the same as
 restoration and the only way you can be restored it to fulfill your
 responsibility to obey the commandments and purify your heart.

 PSA 24:3    Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall
 stand in his holy place?  He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart;
 who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He
 shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God
 of his salvation.

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Date       12-07-91 20:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Jesus/GOD

 PM> PM>> JF>> Only GOD can forgive sins, but Jesus also forgave
 PM> sins. .
 PM>    Terry, wonder what Rafae'l would say to this?      phil

 Maybe there is a contradiction ?

 MAR 2:10    But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth
 to forgive sins

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Date       12-07-91 20:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dale Robertson
Subject        What you believe

 TB>  Could anyone who was doing the will of God murder His son ?
 TB>  Could  you have driven nails into someone who you knew was the
 TB>  true son of God ?


 DR> The answer is Yes!

 I hope you don't find Christ then.  You will have to kill me first !

 DR> God used the people to supply the Blood Atonement...

 Yeah, what kind of people :

 ACS 7:51    Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do
 always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
 ACS 7:52    Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and
 they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One;
 of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

 Is this the club you want to belong to  ?   NOT I    !!!!!!!

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Date       12-07-91 20:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dale Robertson
Subject        What you believe

 DR> I did not know God has standards for salvation

 Now we know why the Holy Spirit has guided you to this conference :

 MAT 5:20     For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall
 exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no
 case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 REV 22:14   Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may
 have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into
 the city.

 PSA 24:3    Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall
 stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who
 hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall
 receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of
 his salvation.


 Need more ?

 MAR 9:47    And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for
 thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes
 to be cast into hell fire:

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Date       12-09-91 10:31:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Wallace
Subject    HARVY SMITH

 Mike,  I hope you get this message.   Did you know that this guy named
 Harvy Smith from the cult watch echo is telling users to send him net
 mail if they have any problems and need to contact the moderator ?

 Can I post the rules too ...and tell users to send me net mail if they
 need to discuss policies of this echo.

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Date       12-09-91 10:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Harvey Smith<314-227-6885
Subject    Open Bible Rules 2

 HS> Mike is alive and well and around.  He has appointed me as his
 HS> co moderator, so please take any further info on the echo to net
 HS> mail.

 I wonder why Mike can't tell us this.

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Date       12-09-91 11:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Lonnie Hortick
Subject    The Virgin Mary

 LH> In other words...you don't believe that Jesus is God, right?

 Right.   Only parents can manifest God on earth because the image of God
 is Male and Female.  Did you read page 1 of your manual ?  See Gen 1:27.

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Date       12-09-91 17:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Jesus/GOD

 JF> > JF> The Gospel Paul was preaching was Christ Jesus and Christ
 JF> >  JF> crusified. moon says Jesus died for nothing, failed in
 JF> his >  JF> mission to earth.
 JF> >
 TB>I don't know where you are getting your information but it is simply
  > incorrect.  Read this, it is directly from the Divine Principle :

 JF> I must be remembering your messages wrong.
 JF> However, moon does not profess that salvation is complete in
 JF> Christ Jesus. He say only some of salvation was accomplished,
 JF> and that is not what Paul teaches.

 Paul clearly knew salvation was not completed because he said we were
 groaning within ourselves waiting for the redemption of our bodies.  I
 can't understand why you think believers are without sin.  It does not
 make someone inconsistent with Paul to recognize this.  If he had even
 the slightest notion that a person was perfected once they accepted
 Christ he would never have written all those letters to the various
 churches and visited them to preach.

 ROM 8:23    And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the
 firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
 waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.



 JF> >  Paul also understands and says the same thing Rev. Moon
 JF> teaches : >
 JF> >  The Apostle Paul testified that "none of the rulers of this
 JF> age >  understood this; for if they had, they would not have
 JF> crucified the > Lord  of glory" (1 Cor 2:8).

 JF>  That is correct, but it has nothing to do with anything moon
 JF> has to say. the "rulers of this age" is satan. If he would have
 JF> know that he was going to be defeated by Jesus's death and
 JF> resurection, he would have doen everything
 JF> in his power to keep Jesus alive.

 Your interpretation is incorrect and you clearly aren't thinking about
 what you are saying.  Who would be the loser if Jesus had celebrated
 the long awaited marriage of the Lamb and brought more sinless children
 into the world ?   Clearly anyone who was afraid of True Love would find
 this most disturbing.  Truth and True Love are the only weapons that can
 defeat Satan.  Surely Jesus' children and those of his faithful
 followers would find false satanic love less appealing.  How could Satan
 continue to dominate such people who knew the reality of true love ?

 JF> >  JF> I hope what I wrote above will explain a little
 JF> >  JF> better why we need witnesses and why GOD Himself would
 JF> have >  JF> provided witnesses to moon's gospel.
 JF> >
 JF> >  Would you believe me if I told you a man named Mr. Eu and
 JF> another man >  name Won Pil Kim witnessed some of those
 JF> revelations and took notes ? >  I don't think your preconceived
 JF> convictions would be overturned if you >  read their
 JF> testimonies.  You would only seek to discredit them... >
 JF> wouldn't you ?     No, I would drop this message thread right
 JF> there. The questions are more for you than for me. I haven't
 JF> accepted moon as christ, so I really don't need proof that he
 JF> is, I would think that after reading my messages it would put
 JF> just a little bit of doubt in your mind and you would seek out
 JF> the answers.

 You don't think that fund raising in the freezing Kmart parking lot of
 Pennsylvania for 3 years while being persecuted and jeered by people who
 had less respect for my faith than you was enough for this Alabama boy
 to question his belief's ?   I simply cannot deny what God has revealed
 to me.

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Date       12-09-91 17:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Sinless Children

 JF>   Would it be so hard for you to put Christ Jesus to the test?
 JF> Get on your knees and with conviction ask Jesus into your heart.
 JF> Prove me wrong, prove that GOD's Word is false, prove salvation
 JF> isn't in Christ Jesus. You really have nothing
 JF> to loose but your Life, so give Jesus a chance to prove to you
 JF> that He is the Way.

 I don't believe you have read or understood any of my messages.  I'm
 beginning to wonder if several different people are using your name ?

 1.   I do not believe God's word is false.   It is your interpretation
      that I disagree with.

 2.   I agree that Jesus brought spiritual salvation. If Jesus had
      brought physical salvation there would be no need for a second
      coming AND you and your wife could parent sinless children.

 3.   I'm not her to prove you wrong.  Don't be so insecure.  I'm here to
      share my faith.  If you are seeking to deepen you understanding of
      God then I can help.  If you have something to share with me about
      your faith then do it.

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Date       12-10-91 07:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject       Covenant

 PM> TB>  How can He destroy sin ?
 PM>
 PM>  By providing a Saviour, for those who want to be saved, and
 PM> then  in flaming fire, cleaning up the residual.

 So daddy is going to burn up the bad kids and save the good kids ?
 Sodom and Gomorrah is the pattern for restoration ?

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Date       12-10-91 07:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject     Homosexuality and th the

 MJ> I don't Know who you are but this Michael Jones is not gay and
 MJ> for the record am married with two teenage sons. You have the
 MJ> wrong person

 There must be two of you because I simply responded to a message one of
 you entered.  I assure you I did not pull your name out of a hat.  You
 may want to change your name by including your middle initial or
 something that will distinguish the two of you.

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Date       12-10-91 07:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Vail Rodney
Subject    Resurrection

 VR> TB>Would it have a devastating effect on your theology if you
 VR> TB> found out that people do remain conscious after death ?
 VR> It is not 'my' theology. It is God's.

 That's not right, it is MY theology that is God's !

 VR> My founder is God.

 Mine too !

 VR> TB> that at least 90% of the people who have lived were not so
 VR> interested
 VR> TB> in promoting a godly way of life.  When these less than
 VR> ideal people died
 VR> TB> and went into the spiritual world, they remained selfish.

 VR> They did not go into a spiritual world. They are dead. It is a
 VR> little difficult to be selfish when you are dead.

 You simply don't understand the Biblical concept of life and death.
 Here let me help...

 In Luke 9:60 we read that to the disciple who wanted to go home for his
 father's funeral, Jesus said, "'... Leave the dead to bury their own
 dead ...'".  In these words of Jesus we find two different concepts of
 life and death.  One concept is concerned with the physiological
 functioning of the physical body.  The other is concerned with the
 people who would gather for the burial of the disciple's father.  Why
 did Jesus indicate that those people who would attend the funeral were
 dead when they were actually alive?  It was because, being under Satan's
 dominion, they were ignorant of the purpose of life and did not know
 God, who is the source of life. Revelation 3:1 says, "'... you have the
 name of being alive and you are dead.'"  From this verse we can see that
 even though a person is physically alive, if he is under Satan's
 dominion, then from Jesus point of view he is dead.  With this view of
 death, life would then mean to be within God's dominion, fulfilling the
 God-given purpose of life.  In John 11:25, 26 Jesus said, "'... he who
 believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and
 believes in me shall never die.'"  This tells us that whoever is
 connected to God's dominion through Christ is alive, regardless of
 whether his physical body is dead or alive and regardless of whether he
 is on earth or in the spirit world.

 The need for resurrection is a result of the death caused by the Fall.
 Let us consider which of the two kinds of death mentioned above is the
 death resulting from the fall of the first human ancestors.  Man's
 physical body is destined to return to the earth after it becomes old
 and dies.  If God had intended human beings to live eternally on earth
 in their physical bodies, there would have been no need to create the
 spirit world for spirit selves to go to.  God created the spirit world
 before man fell; he did not create it after the Fall simply to provide a
 dwelling for the spirit selves of fallen people.  It was always God's
 plan that man's physical self return to earth and that his spirit self
 dwell eternally with God in the spirit world (Eccles 12:7).  Physical
 death is not the death caused by the Fall.

 When God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die on the day that
 they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen
 2:17), the death referred to was not physical death.  We see in Genesis
 that Adam and Eve continued to be active and alive and to have children
 for more than nine hundred years after they ate the Fruit of the Tree of
 the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Yet, if we are to believe God's Word,
 then in some sense they must have died the moment they broke God's
 commandment.

 God's love is the source of life.  Therefore leaving the realm of God's
 love is entering into Satan's realm, where there is no true love, is
 death.  In 1 John 3:14 we learn that "He who does not love abides in
 death".  Also, Roman's 8:6 and Romans 6:23 respectively tell us, "To set
 the mind on the flesh [to be carnally minded] is death, but to set the
 mind on the Spirit is life and peace," and "... the wages of sin is
 death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus ...".
 So from the Bible's viewpoint, the death which was caused by the Fall is
 the state resulting from sin -- the state of being separated from God's
 love.

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Date       12-12-91 20:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> >  So God is experimenting as He goes along....
 RC> I didn't say that.  But out of love he showed that his way of
 RC> substituting the death of Jesus was the best way.  One way he
 RC> showed it was by allowing all men to do what it is that you
 RC> claim you try to do, that is, to be sinless
 RC> and to "rise
 RC> to God's standard."  During this time there was not one single
 RC> individual who was able to do it (which, of course, means that
 RC> you'll never achieve this, either).

 But the fall of man was a result of Adam and Eve procreating outside the
 boundaries of God's blessing of marriage. If God blesses you in marriage
 through Christ then who do you think your children will belong to ?
 Why would they have original sin ?   They wouldn't !  Your children
 would NOT need to be born again.   Is there a greater gift you could
 give to your children ?

 Somehow I just don't think you have understood this truth.  You keep
 fighting it as if you don't understand that a marriage blessed by God
 does not yield children who belong to the devil.


 RC> 2,000 years of Law and none were able to meet its terms.  How do
 RC> you expect to?  You can't.  That's why the righteousness of
 RC> Jesus was made available to all.

 And so will the righteousness of Christ and his Bride at the second
 coming and the marriage supper of the lamb.  That is the righteousness I
 am working from.  NOT my own !


 TB> I would guess you get alone well with the evolutionists ?

 RC> I assume that means you can't find fault with the substance of
 RC> what I said.

 I'm really not looking to find fault in your messages.  I only commented
 that it is the common belief of some folks that God is experimenting as
 He goes along.  Kinda like He doesn't have a plan He is sure of.

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Date       12-12-91 21:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 TB >  On the contrary... God's will was that the people believe in
       Jesus. >  (John 6:29)

 RC> You're a little confused here.  Some people were responsible for
 RC> the death of
 RC> Jesus, yes.  But, many did "the will of God" and believed Jesus.

 I thought we were talking about the will of God ?   :

 2PE 3:9     The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men
 count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any
 should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
                         ^^^

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Date       12-12-91 21:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 TB > They did not do the will of God they did the will of Satan and
    MURDERED Jesus because no one that believed Jesus was the Christ
    could possibly have murdered him.

 RC> What about Herod?  He knew that Jesus (a child) was to be "king
 RC> of the Jews"
 RC> and the messiah, and he ordered the death of all the children
 RC> who were young
 RC> enough to qualify from the time the wise men told him of the
 RC> birth. He was one who knew, and who tried to murder him.

 And you think that was the will of God ?  You are overlooking so much.
 If God only wanted His son to be murdered then He could have sent Jesus
 at any time to any nation.  There was no need to build up a nation of
 people who were expecting the messiah to come to them.  God prepared the
 Jewish people to believe in and receive His son and PROTECT him from an
 evil world... not to kill His son.  Do you think God is preparing
 Christianity to MURDER Christ at the second coming ?    Why do you think
 God prepared the Jewish people for such a perverted task ?

 RC> >  Was Jesus guilty of something ? Did he suffer ?
 RC> This substitutionary sacrifice is perfectly consistent with
 RC> scripture that you ignore.  He suffered so that you wouldn't
 RC> have to.  Yet you keep talking
 RC> about having perfect babies.  You are calling unholy the blood
 RC> of Christ, with which you were sanctified.

 Not at all.  I'm trying to get you to see that this most holy blood had
 the power to eliminate sin at that time through bringing sinless
 children into the world.  It is your faith who can't believe that Christ
 had so much power as I'm telling you.   Jesus' blood had the power to
 purify living flesh and do what Paul yearned for .... deliver us from
 the conflict within.   Before you can ever become a true son or daughter
 of God, you must be adopted into the messiah's family.  Christ did not
 have a wife so there was no family for fallen man to be adopted into.

 RC> Hebrews  13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the
 RC> dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through
 RC> the blood of the everlasticovenant, 21  Make you perfect in
 RC> every good work to do his will, working in you that
 RC> which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to
 RC> whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 RC> Or do you choose to ignore this scripture, also?

 Are your children sinless ?

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Date       12-12-91 21:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 TB> >  Do you really think Jesus would have taught his followers that it
      is alright for me to marry... but you can't.   Once Jesus and
      his Bride >  were established as True Parents then they would have
      look forward to blessing their followers (adopted children) in
      holy marriage.

 RC> Oh, so that's how it's supposed to work.  Everybody would be
 RC *adopted*.

 YES !  YES !  YES !    Finally after all this effort you have finally
 understood something.   Even if you can't believe it I still feel most
 victorious !  Hurray !

 RC> I thought you
 RC> didn't like the idea of correcting a problem after the fact. And
 RC> you think that adopting sinful men is better than having a man
 RC> reborn sinless?

 Ok,  let me try to take you to step two...  The reality of sin is a
 fact, but rather than requiring all people to be reborn for the rest of
 eternity ( or however long you want to consider )  there will come a
 time when one generation will have the opportunity to be adopted into
 the linage of the True Parents ( Christ and his Bride ). Once adopted
 and given the blessing of marriage by Christ, that generation will be in
 a position to parent children from within the boundaries of God's
 blessing of marriage.  Whatever Christ does is ok with God and if Christ
 gives the blessing of marriage to his adopted children, then their
 children will be in God's  DIRECT lineage.

 Can you see the light ?

 TB > This is why those who come to the marriage of the Lamb will be
      blessed. Your children wouldn't need to be reborn if they were born
      right the   first time.

 RC> True; but since that's impossible, why discuss it?

 See there you go underestimating the power of the blood of Christ.  This
 is what I've been trying to tell you... the blood of Christ makes it
 possible to bring sinless children into the world.  For the first time
 in history God will have grandchildren !

 TB > Why are you insisting on 'patching' over sin when you can
      remove it through holy matrimony ?

 RC> Because it is obvious to any christian that you can't have
 RC> perfect children, whether your marriage is blessed or not.

 First, I did not say 'perfect children', I said 'sinless children' who
 are the only children that have the potential to grow to perfection.

 Second, Right !  Christians won't be blessed in marriage by the messiah
 and go on to have sinless children... When the messiah comes his
 followers won't be called christians, they will be called ' MOONIES'  !

 RC> Also, what do you think of the New Covenant?
 RC> What do you think of baptism and communion (the Lord's Supper)?

 The most important thing at this time in history is the opportunity to
 be blessed in marriage by the messiah.  Seek him and get that blessing
 at all cost !

 RC> >  Forgiveness is a 'fix' for an existing problem.  The solution
 RC> is to >  eliminate the problem then you don't need the
 RC> forgiveness fix. And the misunderstanding you have is you think
 RC> that you can eliminate the problem. That is unscriptural.

 It is not unscriptural to believe the living blood of Christ has the
 power to bless a couple in marriage and give them the opportunity to
 bring sinless children into the world.  Christ can do this.  Scripture
 does not say he can't.

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Date       12-12-91 21:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> We don't know how God destroyed sin.

 Through the blood of Christ.  This blood need not be spilled, it is
 powerful enough while still in his veins.

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Date       12-12-91 21:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> Terry, frankly I'm amazed at the scriptures you have to ignore
 RC> to believe the things that you do.

 I simply focus my attention of the prophecies that Christ would come as
 King of Kings while you focus your attention on the suffering
 predictions.

 RC> To what is Isaiah 53 referring?  What about the entire book of
 RC> Hebrews? Not to mention the words of Jesus himself:
 RC>   John  12:27. Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say?
 RC> Father, save   me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto
 RC> this hour. How do you ignore this one?

 First all prophecy is dual in nature.  If you eat the fruit also implies
 you will live if you leave it alone.  Second, I take Jesus mission is
 the context of the time frame it actually took place.  This means that
 many things happened that changed the message from "Repent the kingdom
 of heaven is at hand" in the beginning of Jesus ministry to the promise
 of a second coming at the end.  When John lost faith and Jesus lost the
 support from the foundation that God had prepared through the ministry
 of John the Baptist, Jesus had to start over and try to rebuild that
 foundation.  Unfortunately he could not find the quality and quantity of
 supporters he needed to continue.  This disaster was not preordained by
 God.  It was a most unfortunate and terrible catastrophe.

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Date       12-12-91 21:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 TB > How does one go about restoring a broken relationship like a person
      may have with a former spouse, friend or child. Can on party do
      all the 'fixing' ?

 RC> If one party is God, I would certainly think so.  Wouldn't you?

 No,  God does not want robots.  He wants a relationship with His
 children just like you would.

 RC> How do you hear His voice?  How do you follow Him?  Since you
 RC> aren't in the New Covenant, you must then have an anointing of
 RC> prophet, priest, or king, assuming that the Old Covenant were
 RC> still in existence.

 You can ask the same questions of Jesus' apostles.  How did they find
 Christ when everyone said Jesus was a phoney ?

 TB > What are your goals ?

 RC> My goal is to let the light that is within me be seen.  Jesus
 RC> said that no one lights a light and sets it under a bushel
 RC> basket, so that its light is hidden, but rather "let your light
 RC> shine before men." This light is the life that is within me and
 RC> is expressed through my words, both written and spoken.  When
 RC> these words find a good heart they bear good fruit.

 A most excellent goal... and mine too.

 RC> > Do you want to be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven or do
 RC> you simply > want to hang out with John ?

 RC> I only want others to be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
 RC> with me.

 I know that is true.   I just find it awkward and difficult to know what
 I know and not be able to convey it to you.  I'm sure you feel the same
 way.


 BTW.   I don't know what is going to become of this conference if
 Harvy Smith has indeed muscled in to take over and turn O.B. into the
 new cult_watch echo which he also moderates.    You may soon find out
 you belong to a cult too ?  Anyway, I'm going to the USSR in a few weeks
 to give some lectures on the Divine Principle and I won't be around for
 about a month.  We can continue till then ( unless I get the boot before
 then) and after I return I will be looking for another conference to
 discuss these most important topics.   Merry Christmas to you and yours
 from Me and my family.

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Date       12-12-91 22:03:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 TB> If Christ blessed you and your wife in holy matrimony I would
     conclude that you probably would be in a position to parent sinless
     children.... at least in a position where the probability was
     greater than someone who had not received the blessing of such a
     marriage.

 RC> Then you conclude wrongly.  The problem with the "sinless Mary"
 RC> idea is that the sin nature has something to do with the blood
 RC> of the father, and not the mother.

 Well, people also used to think that the mother was merely a vessel
 where the father deposited the baby to grow and mature, but now we know
 that both parents contribute to the gene pool.  Maybe you will  change
 this belief someday ?


 RC> It was important that Jesus have a father
 RC> who did not have the sin nature.

 Why ?   Is it impossible for God to send His son as your child ?

 RC> metaphorically, of seeds quickened into life, i.e.
 RC> germinating, springing up, growing In other words, your spirit
 RC> and body both need to be "made alive."  Having both the father
 RC> and mother blessed sounds nice, but it doesn't meet the terms
 RC> of the "covenant" which requires the shedding of blood for the
 RC> forgiveness of sin.

 Sorry, I believe Christs' blood was more powerful while inside his
 veins.   I suppose this is the root of our disagreement.

 Where is Christs' blood most powerful ?   In his body or on the ground ?

 In his body it could sustain his physical life and allow him to become
 the father of God's grand children.  On the ground Satan is the one who
 can have grand children.

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Date       12-12-91 22:16:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Exegetical Help WanWa

 RC> To know that I would be "caught up" to be with the Lord forever
 RC> would be pretty comforting, don't you think?

 I'm not going into the stratusphere.  I'm going to stay here and work
 with Christ to fulfill his prayer :

 MAT 6:10    Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in
 heaven.                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 In the Bible 'waters' are fallen people and 'clouds' are purified people
 who have made themselves ready for the coming of Christ.  Christ will
 indeed come on the clouds.  He will come to the people who did exactly
 what he told them to do:

 MAR 13:33   Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time
 is.

 LUK 21:36   Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be
 accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and
 to stand before the Son of man.

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Date       12-12-91 22:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Louise Thatcher
Subject    GAYS IN THE CHURCH

 LT>   But, this doesn't mean that one group of people who are unable
 LT> to   bond with someone of the (somewhat, but no longer perfect)
 LT> opposite   sex should be forced to live a life of celibacy and
 LT> lonliness when   his/her heterosexual counterparts are no more
 LT> perfect in sexual   expression than he. Homosexuals have been
 LT> made the scapegoat for the   sins and imperfections of the
 LT> entire church, no doubt about it.

 Well, you are convinced that homosexuality is ok, natural, or whatever,
 but as a chemist I know positively charged molecules or atoms do not
 bond with each other.  You can count on that.  Also negatively charged
 molecules and atoms likewise repel one another.  I don't care to judge
 anyone ...especially for their sexual preferences.   I really don't want
 to be judged for my fantasies either...   so I'm going to keep them
 to myself.  I have never understood how a sexual attraction between
 members of the same sex could exist.   I suppose I have always looked on
 gay people as people who had a problem with the opposite sex and as a
 result they turned to their own to gain acceptance and respect or
 whatever...    The few gay people I have know (most of them women)
 really seemed confused and frightened about the man woman relationships.

 The fall of man was a result of the first man and woman entering into a
 sexual relationship before they were mature enough to take
 responsibility for a love that was so powerful.  They were not mature
 enough to control such love.  Few people since then have found the
 power to control such love.

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Date       12-12-91 22:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Jesus/God

 TB >  Can a person't actions take them to Hell ?

 RC> The answer should be obvious.  If you are to face hell only for
 RC> certain sins, which sins would they be?  How fair is God if he
 RC> allows only some sins to be remitted?

 MAT 12:31    Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy
 shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost
 shall not be forgiven unto men.


 Don't you know there are 7 deadly sins that carry a little more weight ?
 Can you name 5 of them ?

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Date       12-12-91 22:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Jesus/God

 RC> > RC Since it is obviously impossible for man to raise his
 RC> "level up >  RC to meet God's standard," why even mention it?
 RC> >

 TB > Well you seem to have given up.  What kind of voice is telling
 TB> you that you can't raise your standard ?

 RC> A holy one:
 RC> "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
 RC> "There is no one righteous, no not one."

 Please meditate on these holy voices :

 MAT 5:20     For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall
 exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no
 case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 REV 22:14   Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may
 have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into
 the city.

 MAT 7:19    Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
 and cast into the fire.

 MAT 18:9    And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it]
 from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather
 than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

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Date       12-12-91 22:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Ralph Stokes
Subject    NEW MODERATOR

 RS> Yes, I agree, you should not be the moderator.(grin)

 Thanks,  As usual you find the most meaningful part of the message and
 ignore the rest.

 RS> Secondly, if Mike Wallace has dropped out, what do we need a
 RS> moderator for?

 Two big reasons :

 #1.  To prevent anyone from turning this conference into the cult_watch
 conference.   Did you know the King James Church is a  cult ? <snicker>
 If you want to join the cult_watch conference that should be your choice
 but to bring it here is not in the rule book.

 #2. Fidonet requires a conference have an active moderator.  If a
 conference does not have an active moderator it cannot stay on the
 backbone.

 Are you moving to Buffalo N.Y. ?

 How is your girl that got hurt in the automobile accident last year ?

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Date       12-12-91 23:03:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    The "virgin" Mary

 RC> That's exactly why he died: so that there could be many who are
 RC> like Jesus: his spiritual children.  There were 3000 more on
 RC> Pentecost, 5000 more shortly
 RC> after that, and then many, many more.

 Man, if 3000 to 5000 people took away the sins of the world there would
 not be even a dirty thought left... this place would be squeaky clean !

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Date       12-13-91 08:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 TB> >  I really don't think impure folk will be the ones on the
     > narrow path. >  You better check your arithmetic again !

 RC> God is the only one who can do the sanctifying.  The purity that
 RC> you think you can achieve is only filthiness in the eyes of God,
 RC> as the following scripturshow.

 As the following scriptures show, you better prepare.

 PSA 24:3    Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall
 stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who
 hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall
 receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of
 his salvation.

 REV 19:7    Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the
 marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 I know you really don't believe that a person needs no preparation. You
 know what Jesus said:

 JOH 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 Who are his sheep ?   Is God making that decision ?

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Date       12-13-91 08:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 RC> Only God can cleanse the heart of impurities when a man turns to
 RC> Christ.

 That is true, but we have to ask why God didn't just scrub away the sins
 of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah.   Apparently God cannot do it
 without man's cooperation.   If it were all up to God then everyone that
 went to hell would be mighty disappointed that God didn't clean them up.

 What determines who God will choose to clean up ?  Is it something like
 random selection or does man make that choice ?

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Date       12-13-91 11:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Resurrection

 PM>     One thing is clear, God pronounced curses on anyone trying
 PM> to     contact the dead.   If the dead knew something of value
 PM> to us,     (they don't) why would God have such a curse set for
 PM> this ?

 I'm not suggesting you hold a seance.  But I'm telling you that just as
 Moses and Elias worked with Jesus, there are people in your lineage who
 have likewise died and went into spiritual world that will try to work
 with you : ( some of them may in fact know more than you )

 Hebrews 11:39-41 says, "And all these [saints of the Old Testament age],
 though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised
 [admission to the Kingdom of Heaven], since God had foreseen something
 better [the Kingdom of Heaven] for us [persons on earth], that apart
 from us they [spirit persons] should not be made perfect". These words
 demonstrate the principles of returning resurrection.


 You don't understand the principles of resurrection.  Here they are:

                      The Principles of Resurrection

 Since resurrection means the phenomena occurring in the course of
 restoring fallen man's nature to the standard originally created by God,
 the dispensation for resurrection is actually the Dispensation for
 Restoration.  The Dispensation for Restoration is also the dispensation
 for re-creation.  Consequently the dispensation for the resurrection is
 carried out according to what is explained in "The Principles of the
 Creation".

 First of all, according to "The Principles of the Creation", the Purpose
 of the Creation is fulfilled when man accomplishes his responsibility,
 by believing in and living God's Word.  Therefore in resurrection, which
 is re-creation, God gives man His Word -- he gave the Old Testament and
 the New Testament, and he promised to give the complete testament when
 Christ returns.  In order to be resurrected, man must fulfill his
 responsibility -- to believe in and live the Word.  Thus, resurrection
 is accomplished by God's giving His Word (truth) to man together with
 man's fulfilling his responsibility to believe in and live the truth.

 Secondly, according to "The Principles of the Creation", each person's
 spirit self is created to grow and become perfect only on the basis of a
 relationship with the physical self.  In accordance with this principle,
 the resurrection (purification, growth, and perfection) of a persons
 spirit self must also be realized based on his physical self, and thus,
 while he is living on earth.  Actually, until today, resurrection has
 usually been conceived of as the reviving of the physically dead at
 Christ's return.  But this is incorrect; God's dispensation for
 resurrection is an ongoing process that has focused on the people who
 are alive on earth.  It is to them that the has sent prophets with the
 Truth.

 Thirdly, according to "The Principles of the Creation", man is created
 to become perfect by growing through the three stages of the growing
 period.  Therefore, the dispensation for the resurrection of fallen man
 is to be accomplished through three dispensational stages.

 Fourthly, although the various central persons in God's Dispensation for
 Restoration could not fully carry out their responsibilities, they did
 their best with the deepest loyalty to God.  Their loyalty and devotion
 has accumulated as merit on earth.  Based on this foundation of heart
 laid by faithful people of earlier ages, people of later generations
 have been able to receive certain merits in each age (merits of the age)
 in the dispensation for resurrection.  The dispensation for resurrection
 is carried out according to the merits of the age.  In other words, the
 degree of resurrection possible in a given age is based on the
 historical foundation of heart established by the faithful of earlier
 ages.

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Date       12-13-91 18:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Philip Brown
Subject    Preaching

 PB>     Where does the Bible ever say that ONLY the 144,000 are
 PB> anointed with the Holy Spirit???  The hundreds of thousands of
 PB> martyrs that lived during the ten waves of persecution of
 PB> christians

 Groucho Marx said he would not want to be a member of an organization
 that would have him as a member.  They found a way to get around this
 paradox.  <grin>     You can join the JW's but if your number is 144,001
 when you go to sign the register then you have to get on the waiting
 list and hope there is a cancellation from someone who signed earlier.

 Since I saw an earlier message claiming the total enrollment at the
 Kingdom Hall is up to 4 million, I wouldn't be that hopeful about enough
 cancellations to get me in.    ...better consider the Moonies <grin> We
 still are taking applications and our book doesn't stop at 144,000.

 Actually our book already has your name in it... we are waiting on you
 to check in along with the rest of the lost sheep we know are out there.

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Date       12-13-91 22:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    He Is Yours

 WC>    Unfortunately, Terry, I did not see the original message. I
 WC> have been very busy lately preparing for the symposium.
 WC> Generally I check for personal mail and then quickly scan the
 WC> "to", "from" and "titles". I probably missed this particular
 WC> message. I don't recognize who DR is at the moment. Hopefully I
 WC> will have more time soon to devote to the echo.

 Yes, I noticed you had been busy.  Did you notice the moderator of the
 cult_watch echo came over here and proclaimed he had a divine revelation
 from Mike to take over as the moderator of this conference ?  I'm
 expecting a renaming of O.B. to Cult_Watch #2 any day now.  I hope the
 United Pentecostal Church isn't on Harvey's  cult list.

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Date       12-13-91 22:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jimmy

 WC>    I do not doubt that you watched him. However, Jimmy WAS
 WC> defrocked by the Assemblies of God some time ago. He is no
 WC> longer a part of that organization. He represents only himself
 WC> since that time.

 Was that due to his incorrect faith or his actions ?   Will faith alone
 guarantee someone salvation ?

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Date       12-13-91 22:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Vail Rodney
Subject    Resurrection

 VR> Romans 5:12
 VR> "by one man sin entered into the world.....and so death passed
 VR> upon all men, for that [all have sinned]."
 VR> At that point, all humanity was condemned to death, that is why
 VR> Christ came and died. He paid for the 'penalty' of sin, which is
 VR> death.


 I don't get it.  Are you saying you won't grow old and die ? If the
 price is paid to live forever in the flesh why aren't at least a few
 people over a 1,000 years old ?  Are you hiding these folks from the
 rest of us ?   I simply don't see any connection between the biblical
 concept of life and death and Webster's definition. In the Bible life
 and death are associated with either living in God's dominion or outside
 God's dominion it has nothing to do with the morphological state of a
 person's physical body.

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Date       12-13-91 22:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Rev Moon

 WC>    If you are interested in going to the source of these beliefs
 WC> you might try your local library. The book to look for is THE
 WC> DIVINE PRINCIPLE which, of course, is written by Moon.

 Walter, thanks for the plug.   BTW did you know that Kim Il San, the
 president of North Korea, sent his private jet to pick up Rev. Moon and
 met with him last week ?  He also arranged for Rev. Moon's sisters and
 some of his relatives to meet him at the airport.   Rev. Moon spent
 about a week in North Korea and met about 3 hours with President San.


 God is working.  Unification of the Fatherland.  Jacob and Esau unite.
 Can you understand the gravity of this event ?

 Did you know I'm going to the USSR to help conduct a Divine Principle
 workshop for 6,000 Soviet students ?   I'll be going Jan 19 and staying
 for 3 weeks.  Don't let folks talk behind my back while I'm gone. And by
 all means pray for me and my party.

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Date       12-13-91 22:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Rev Moon

 WC> TB>>After 15 years of study of Rev. Moon's teaching, I have not
 WC> found TB>>that Jesus was blamed for his crucifixion.  John the
 WC> Baptist gets TB>>the blame for Jesus going the way of the cross.
 WC> DR>Bingo! I knew it would finally come out and I have prayed to
 WC> see DR>where these views come from. Thanks Terry, God is a great
 WC> God a DR>pray answering God as spoken in his word. Tell me how
 WC> John the DR>Baptist gets the blame, I can't wait to hear this
 WC> explaination.    Obviously, Dale, you were praying in the will
 WC> of God. Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made
 WC> manifest;

 Why don't you give it a shot and explain the Divine Principle
 teaching on the Mission of the Messiah to brother Dale ?  You have
 probably read and though about this teaching more than anyone in this
 conference.  You don't have to tell him you believe it, just the
 straight report.

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Date       12-14-91 07:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Bible myths..

 RC> Karin has shown, so far, she is not interested in truth.  She
 RC> believes (only
 RC> when it comes to the bible) in hypercriticism.

 Ohhhh, Rick,  you say that about everyone who does not hold your views.

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Date       12-14-91 07:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Les Wilcox
Subject     Great Whore

 LW> Gerard
 LW>
 LW> The Bible tells us not to rely upon man and his understanding.
 LW> I would suggest
 LW> you look into the Spirit or TO the Spirit and find out what HE
 LW> has to say about the Great Whore.

 In other words, read between the lines like he does.  < snicker >

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Date       12-14-91 07:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Roger Hepworth
Subject    Jesus is God

 RH> COL 3:3     For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ
 RH>            in God.
 RH>
 RH>
 RH>        Again is writing to dead men?
 RH>        Or are we using figurative terms again?
 RH>        He is using figurative terms.


 In Luke 9:60 we read that to the disciple who wanted to go home for his
 father's funeral, Jesus said, "'... Leave the dead to bury their own
 dead ...'".  In these words of Jesus we find two different concepts of
 life and death.  One concept is concerned with the physiological
 functioning of the physical body.  The other is concerned with the
 people who would gather for the burial of the disciple's father.  Why
 did Jesus indicate that those people who would attend the funeral were
 dead when they were actually alive?  It was because, being under Satan's
 dominion, they were ignorant of the purpose of life and did not know
 God, who is the source of life. Revelation 3:1 says, "'... you have the
 name of being alive and you are dead.'"  From this verse we can see that
 even though a person is physically alive, if he is under Satan's
 dominion, then from Jesus point of view he is dead.  With this view of
 death, life would then mean to be within God's dominion, fulfilling the
 God-given purpose of life.  In John 11:25, 26 Jesus said, "'... he who
 believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and
 believes in me shall never die.'"  This tells us that whoever is
 connected to God's dominion through Christ is alive, regardless of
 whether his physical body is dead or alive and regardless of whether he
 is on earth or in the spirit world.


 The need for resurrection is a result of the death caused by the Fall.
 Let us consider which of the two kinds of death mentioned above is the
 death resulting from the fall of the first human ancestors.  Man's
 physical body is destined to return to the earth after it becomes old
 and dies.  If God had intended human beings to live eternally on earth
 in their physical bodies, there would have been no need to create the
 spirit world for spirit selves to go to.  God created the spirit world
 before man fell; he did not create it after the Fall simply to provide a
 dwelling for the spirit selves of fallen people.  It was always God's
 plan that man's physical self return to earth and that his spirit self
 dwell eternally with God in the spirit world (Eccles 12:7).  Physical
 death is not the death caused by the Fall.

 When God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die on the day that
 they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen
 2:17), the death referred to was not physical death.  We see in Genesis
 that Adam and Eve continued to be active and alive and to have children
 for more than nine hundred years after they ate the Fruit of the Tree of
 the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Yet, if we are to believe God's Word,
 then in some sense they must have died the moment they broke God's
 commandment.

 God's love is the source of life.  Therefore leaving the realm of God's
 love is entering into Satan's realm, where there is no true love, is
 death.  In 1 John 3:14 we learn that "He who does not love abides in
 death".  Also, Roman's 8:6 and Romans 6:23 respectively tell us, "To set
 the mind on the flesh [to be carnally minded] is death, but to set the
 mind on the Spirit is life and peace," and "... the wages of sin is
 death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus ...".
 So from the Bible's viewpoint, the death which was caused by the Fall is
 the state resulting from sin -- the state of being separated from God's
 love.

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Date       12-14-91 07:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Roger Hepworth
Subject    Jesus is God

 RH> Isa 43:11     I, even I am the LORD; and beside me there is no
 RH>             saviour.
 RH>
 RH> lu 1:47       And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
 RH>
 RH> Php 3:20      For our conversation is in heaven; from whence
 RH>             also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
 RH>
 RH>
 RH>        WHAT!!!...did you see that last one.....
 RH>        Jesus is our Saviour....
 RH>        and God only is our saviour......Hmmmmm
 RH>        lets see 2+2=4...yea that right
 RH>        Jesus must be God.

 Wait a sec...   What if you wanted an IBM computer and I was their only
 representative and you had to purchase it through me....  would that
 make me IBM ?   Of course not.

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Date       12-14-91 07:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Roger Hepworth
Subject    Jesus is God

 RH>        What can I say, there is on saviour besides God,
 RH>        AND Jesus Christ is our saviour.
 RH>        agian I have to say that Jesus is God.

 But you ignore scripture that says God is greater than Jesus, Jesus is
 the mediator between God and fallen man, and God's image is male and
 female.

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Date       12-14-91 07:52:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Jesus/God

 RC> That's something I don't understand about Terry's reasoning, and
 RC> I probably should have asked him/her.  Terry says that it wasn't
 RC> God's will for Jesus to die on the cross, and that if it had
 RC> been, Satan was smart enough to figure it out ahead
 RC> of time and not kill him.  If Satan is smart enough to outwit
 RC> God, why wasn't God smart enough to accomplish his will?

 Because God's will is not fulfilled by God alone. The will of God is
 accomplished when man fulfills his portion of responsibility.

 Re-read your message while thinking about Satan's role in the fall of
 man.  Was it God's will that Adam and Eve disobey God and fall into
 temptation of the devil then ?

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Date       12-14-91 15:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Philip Brown
Subject    FEARING DEATH

 PB>     Death ITSELF is bad because it goes against God's purpose.

 No, no, God created man's spirit before the fall, not after.  The reason
 God gave man an eternal spirit is so man could live eternally after
 the physical body had expired.

 In addition to that, consider the mess the world would already be in if
 people did not die.  The problem of overpopulation would be serious
 already, not to mention the situation that would develop in a few
 million years.

 PB> It was never God's intention for man to die-- thus it is
 PB> considered an enemy. But "serious Christians" know that even
 PB> though they may die, God has made plans for them (and we
 PB> consider this good).  In other words, death is evil, but the
 PB> provisions that God has made for us after death is good.

 Nothing is evil about death. Plants and Animals die and they never
 sinned.  The only thing bad about dieing is that you go to the level you
 have grown to while on earth.  Unfortunately that level is not so close
 to God in most cases.  If you are living in hell on earth when you die
 your spirit will be in hell.

 MAT 16:19   And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
 and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and
 whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 MAT 18:18   Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth
 shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall
 be loosed in heaven.

 JOH 14:2    In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not
 [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
 JOH 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and
 receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

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Date       12-14-91 15:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Philip Brown
Subject    JESUS' DEITY

 PB>     Why can't Jesus be a mediator between the person called the
 PB> Father and man?

 This clearly makes a distinction between God and Jesus that could not
 apply if Jesus was God.

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Date       12-14-91 16:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    New Moderator

 RC> I think Mike Wallace has been doing an excellent job and I hope
 RC> that tradition continues.

 Where is Mike ?    Do you participate in the Cult_watch echo ?
 Why should that moderator come over here and start posting the rules and
 claim the title of appointed co-moderator ?    If I want to be moderated
 by him I'll pick up his conference.  I don't like see someone who is so
 negative about Mormons or any other minority take over this conference
 and turn it into cult_watch #2.  Do we agree on this ?


 All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

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Date       12-14-91 17:03:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Covenant

 PM> RC> We don't know how God destroyed sin.
 PM>
 PM>    The reason you don't know is that it hasn't happened yet.
 PM>
 PM>    Let me tell you how it will happen.   By fire.

 But where does sin come from ?  Sin isn't something outside of you and
 me, it comes from within.  The fire that will destroy the sin that lies
 within us is truth.   Jesus came to kindle a fire but he did not strike
 matches... he spoke the truth.  Other references to fire say the tongue
 is a fire and the Old Testament says the tongue is the the word of God.

 JER 17:9   The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and
            desperately wicked:

 In reality God cannot destroy sin directly.  If God were good and all
 powerful and it were up to Him, He would have destroyed sin a long time
 ago.  God destroys sin by raising up a standard of goodness that fallen
 people can look upon and see their impurities.  Once we know good from
 evil we can divide ourselves as the offerings of the Old Testament were
 divided and separate the good from evil within ourselves.   This is not
 easy and we rather Jesus come back and do something magical for us... so
 doctrines of pacifism were created to relax and sooth us while we wait.
 In the meantime evil flourishes :

 LUK 17:26   And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the
 day of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives,
 they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the
 ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was
 in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold,
 they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom
 it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even
 thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

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Date       12-14-91 19:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Jesus/God

 PM> RC> When Jesus died on the cross, he said, "It is finished."
 PM> And RC> so was all sin.
 PM>
 PM>    Does that mean I have never sinned?         phil

 You make a good point.

 Rick seems to think God can't see sin since Jesus was crucified.  At
 least this is what I understand is his view.

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Date       12-14-91 19:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Tim Of_angle
Subject     Jimmy

 BC> Jesus didn't come to earth to set up a denomination.

 TO> No, he came to set up a church. (Matthew 16:18) There is a
 TO> difference.

 Is that really what you believe ?   Are you spoofing this guy ?

 1JO 3:8 ...For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might
            destroy the works of the devil.


Date       12-16-91 14:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC>                      ACCORDING TO REVEREND MOON
 RC> Problem: Original Sin -- Procreating without being blessed in
 RC> marriage. Extended to
 all men.  God did not get his children.
 (you should have said grand children)
 RC> Solution: Parents be blessed in marriage in future, God gets
 RC> children. Results: All can be sinless, some through adoption.
 RC> Requirement: Parents have to be blessed.  Children have no
 RC> personal decision
 RC> to be sinless.
 RC> Of Note: Since this doctrine is not taught directly by the
 RC> bible, it had to be
 RC> supplemented by the teachings of Reverend Moon.
 RC> Could you expand or correct my understanding of what you
 RC> believe?

 Not really,  You did a beautiful job and I applaud you if you did indeed
 figure all this out by yourself.   <grin>    I suppose there is one part
 I would like to comment on and that is the part where you seemingly say
 with disappointment that children have no personal decision to be
 sinless.   I would like to remind you that children have no decision to
 be born with original sin ....so either way they don't have the freedom
 to decide if they are going to be born sinless or with original sin.  In
 fact they don't have anything to say about the race, nationality, or
 social status they are born into.

 Lastly I want to remind you that no one is free to sin.  If you were
 free to sin it wouldn't cost you, but we both know:

 ROM 6:23    For the wages of sin [is] death;


 And last, last, I also want to remind you that the supplemented teaching
 Rev. Moon delivered was the result of encounters with Jesus Christ
 beginning Easter Sunday, 1936.

 2,000 years ago Jesus said :

 JOH 16:12   I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear
 them now.

 Do think Jesus could have decided it is time to say these things now ?

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Date       12-16-91 15:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> to believe.  Jesus felt this point was so important that he
 RC> begins with a phrase indicating the truth, a double "verily."
 RC>  John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I
 RC> say unto  thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the
 RC> kingdom of God.

 Birth requires parents and rebirth implies parents.  Aren't you reborn
 through Jesus and the Holy Spirit ?   Aren't they your spiritual
 parents ?

 RC> John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye
 RC> shall die in your sins: for  if ye believe not that I am [he],
 RC> ye shall die in your sins. Each person has to make a decision
 RC> for Christ, else they retain their sin, regardless of the acts
 RC> of their parents.  If parents are blessed in marriage,
 RC> the children are still required to make a decision for Christ.
 RC> Parents cannot change the requirements for their children, blessing
 RC> or no blessing.

 Hold on a sec.  There is a lot of stuff you have missed about the sins
 of the fathers being passed on to their children.  Look at the suffering
 of Abraham's children when he was cursed for failing to offer the pigeon
 and dove.  Look at Jesus words in John 8:40 ff.   Fallen man inherited
 sin from our original ancestors Adam and Eve.  Fallen people have also
 inherited blessings from their ancestors faith.  Look at the story of
 Jacob for an example.


 Let me pause for a couple minutes and try to help you understand the
 meaning of being born sinless.  First being sinless does not mean you
 are perfect, it only means that you have the potential to reach
 perfection that a person born with original sin does not have.  It also
 means that Satan does not have a claim on you as a child of his lineage
 as he does on children born with original sin.  Sinless children, like
 Christ can grow up to become a messiah however fallen children can at
 best attain sainthood.  Do you want your children to be saints or
 messiah's ?     Which do you think can procreate sinless children of
 their own ?    Saints can't have sinless children... well unless they
 are blessed by the messiah... but messiah's can have all the sinless
 children they want and need no permission and condition of approval from
 Christ.    Sinless children, born of parents blessed in marriage by God,
 don't need to be born again.  They were born right the first time.  They
 don't have to make the same kind of conscious decision to follow God
 that fallen children have to make. Fallen children have to decide to
 leave their satanic lineage and fight to cut that relationship and unite
 with their newly adopted lineage.    If sinless children want to sin,
 the opportunity still exists, but if they are raised by parents like
 Christ and his Bride then the reality of the True Love of God is so
 clear that the desire for the less delicious false love of Satan does
 not tempt them.

 RC> So far, I only have your suppositions which both contradict and
 RC> ignore many of the bible's explicit statements regarding
 RC> salvation.  If it weren't for that, I would be much likelier to
 RC> accept your statements. While your philosophy makes a limited
 RC> amount of sense, and it is apparent that your desires are
 RC> sincere, your doctrine is not scriptural.  Which just shows me
 RC> that it is not enough to be sensible and sincere -- one must
 RC> also believe God. Reverend Moon presents a different doctrine
 RC> than what we see in the bible.

 I understand your concern but let me show you where Jesus brought a new
 doctrine that marveled the folk when he came 2,000 years ago :

 MAR 1:27∙And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned
 among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is]
 this?

 ACS 17:19∙And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying,
 May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, [is]?

 I have studied Rev. Moon's doctrine for over 15 years and I don't see it
 contradicting scripture although I clearly know that it does contradict
 the modern interpretations of scripture.

 RC> John said if a spirit speaks to us, we are to test the spirit.
 RC> Is there any evidence that Reverend Moon tested his doctrine?
 RC> Since it contradicts and ignores relevant scripture, I would
 RC> have to conclude that he did not.

 If Jesus appears to you, you will know it is Jesus.  You don't find St.
 Paul questioning the spirit who spoke to him and you don't find St. John
 testing the authority of the angel who brought the revelation we read at
 the end of the Bible.

 I believe the thing you are overlooking in your quest to explain away
 this teaching is the fact that Satan works best when he is hidden.∙That
 is why Satan was so powerful in creating mass destruction and destroying
 human lives through the ideology of communism.∙In communism there is
 not only no God but also no Satan.∙Can you imagine a more convenient
 place for him to hide than an ideology that says he doesn't even exits ?

 I can assure you Satan will not come up with a doctrine such as Divine
 Principle to deceive you.∙Divine Principle teaches that Satan
 fornicated with Eve and emphasizes Satan's desired to murder Christ
 through entering Judas.  I promise you that Satan is not confessing his
 sins either.
 MegaMail -> Warning, Message Truncated!

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Date       12-16-91 15:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> We were; the previous part of your message stated that no one
 RC> believed Jesus, which is wrong.

 First who was Jesus #1 man ?

 MAT 16:18   And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this
 rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail
 against it.

 But what did everyone, including his #1 man do ?   :

 LUK 22:34   And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow
 this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
 LUK 22:61   And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter
 remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the
 cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

 Can you tell me why no one was willing to be crucified with Christ ?

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Date       12-16-91 15:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> it.  Since what it does declare is that the original reason he
 RC> came was to be sacrificed, I believe what it says -- you don't.

 Absolutely NOT.   Jesus did not come to die. He came to restore man to
 God and do away with the work of the devil.

 Christians have traditionally believed that Jesus' death on the cross
 was predestined as the original plan of God.  No it was not!  It was a
 grievous error to crucify Jesus Christ.  The crucifixion of Jesus was
 the consequence of the sheer ignorance of the people of Israel
 concerning God's dispensation.  God's will was clearly for the chosen
 people to accept and believe in Jesus (Jn 6:29, 10:37,38) and receive
 salvation.  The people of Israel did not understand who Jesus of
 Nazareth was, for even as he hung dying on the cross they mocked him,
 shouting that they would believe in him as savior only if he came down
 from the cross.  The Bible points out that "he came to his own home, and
 his own people received him not" (Jn 1:11); and the Apostle Paul
 testified that "none of the rulers of this age understood this; for if
 they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor 2:8).

 Christians today do not have a clear understanding of the truth behind
 the historic events that took place in Jesus' time.  If God's will for
 man's salvation could be accomplished only by the Crucifixion, why did
 he spend so much time preparing a chosen people?  Was it not because he
 did not want to hand his Son over to faithless people?

 In the garden at Gethsemane, Jesus prayed, "' ... My soul is very
 sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me ... My Father,
 if it be possible, let this cup pass from me ... '" (Mt 26:38, 39).
 Jesus uttered this prayer not once, but three times.  Many Christians,
 who believe that Jesus' mission was to bring salvation by dying on the
 cross, explain that Jesus uttered this prayer out of human weakness or
 frailty.  But could Jesus Christ, the savior of mankind, utter any
 prayer out of weakness?

 The first Christian martyr, Stephen, and many of the martyrs who
 followed, never prayed from such weakness.  Did they ever ask, "Let this
 cup pass from me," as they were dying?  How can we say that Jesus was
 weaker than these martyrs?  Especially if the purpose of his coming was
 to save all mankind by dying on the cross, could there be any reason
 that he would pray to escape from it?

 This prayer of Jesus was not a selfish or timid prayer, uttered out of
 fear of dying.  If the crucifixion had been the very way for Jesus to
 save mankind, he would gladly have died on the cross thousands of times
 over.  Jesus was beset with anxiety when he thought about his mission as
 the Messiah, which was to realize God's Purpose for the Creation on
 earth.  His heart was so troubled because he knew how sorrowful God
 would feel if the completion of the dispensation for salvation were
 delayed.  Jesus also foresaw the sufferings and bloodshed of his
 disciples and followers, the Christians, who would have to follow his
 path of suffering and the cross.  He also anguished over the troubled
 future that would come to the people of Israel if they rejected him.
 With all of this in mind, in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus uttered a
 last desperate prayer to God, repeatedly pleading that God let him
 remain on earth, even in those hopeless circumstances, so that he could
 continue his mission and change the hearts of the people to the point
 where they would accept him.

 If Jesus' death on the cross was predestined by God, then why did Jesus
 say to Judas Iscariot, his betrayer, "' ... woe to that man by whom the
 Son of man is betrayed!  It would have been better for that man if he
 had not been born'" (Mt 26:24); and how can we explain Jesus' crying out
 on the cross, "' ... My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?'" (Mt
 27:46).  If the crucifixion were truly God's original will for Jesus,
 then Jesus should have felt resounding joy on the cross, having
 successfully completed his mission.

 Death on the cross was not the mission that God had originally intended
 for Jesus, his Son.  Rather, it became God's painful secondary
 dispensation necessitated by the faithlessness of the people of Israel.
 What would have happened if all the people of Israel had believed in
 Jesus and had welcomed him, loved him, and united with him?  Most
 certainly, complete salvation would have been realized.  In other words,
 Jesus would have completely established the Kingdom of Heaven on earth,
 the place where the Purpose of the Creation has been realized.  God's
 world would have been realized -- the world in which all people believe
 in and follow the Son of God.  The people of Israel would have become
 the glorious core of heaven.  The Jewish and christian worlds would
 never have been divided, nor would the early christians have had to
 endure any of their terrible sufferings. Furthermore, because the
 Messiah would have completed his mission, there would be no reason for a
 Second Coming.

 Understanding the question of salvation in this light, we can see that
 Jesus' crucifixion was a secondary course of salvation and provided only
 spiritual salvation.  When the people came to the point of completely
 disbelieving Jesus and abandoning him, God had to pay the price for the
 sinful lack of faith of the Israelites and all mankind by giving the
 live of his only Son to Satan as a ransom.  As a result, Satan destroyed
 Jesus' physical body by nailing him to the cross, and Jesus' blood on
 the cross became the price for the redemption of mankind.

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Date       12-16-91 15:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> First, we can argue forever from what each of us thinks makes
 RC> sense.  If we each support an opposing view then what is there
 RC> to decide the question of which is right?  That is why God
 RC> provided his word in the form of the bible, so that in the
 RC> analysis of any doctrine, we have something with which to judge.
 RC> It's not so much "what do I think" or "what do you think" but
 RC> rather "what does God say?"

 You are correct.   Consider this :

 If Jesus' death on the cross was not essential for the fulfillment of
 his messianic purpose, then why did Isaiah 53 predict the Messiah's
 suffering and death?  Here we must remind ourselves that there are also
 verses in the Bible which prophesy that the Messiah will come as the Son
 of God and the King of kings and bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on
 earth.  These prophecies appear in Isaiah 9, 11, and 60, in other verses
 in the Old Testament, and in Luke 1:31-33.

 When God first created man, he created him to grow to perfection only by
 man's completing a share of responsibility.  Man can either accomplish
 his responsibility, as God wants him to do, or to the contrary, he can
 fail to accomplish it.  Accordingly, it was necessary that God give two
 kinds of prophecies regarding the fulfillment of His Will.

 It is God's responsibility to send the Messiah, but it is man's
 responsibility to believe in him.  Unfortunately, by not accepting
 Jesus, the Israelites failed to fulfill their responsibility; they did
 not fulfill God's primary prophecies for the Messiah's coming, which are
 in Isaiah 9, 11, and 60 and Luke 1:31-33, but to the contrary, carried
 out the alternative or secondary prophecy of the suffering Messiah, in
 Isaiah 53.

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Date       12-16-91 15:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> for his sin.  Each individual has to decide for Christ, whether
 RC> their parents are blessed in marriage or not.

 Not really, that is like your children having to decide if they want to
 belong to your family.  Since they are already born a Carroll then they
 don't have to decide if they want to be on.

 RC> All who are "born again" of the spirit are adopted into God's
 RC> family. Everyone
 RC> "blessed in marriage" who does not become born again will die in
 RC> his/her sins, and face the eternal death of hell.

 Still this spiritual adoption does not allow you to parent sinless
 children.  Christ must come again and eliminate original sin and adopt
 those among us who can recognize him ...into his family and bless them
 in marriage so they too can parent sinless children.  ...else sin
 continues to be a reality with each successive generation.

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Date       12-16-91 16:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 TB> See there you go underestimating the power of the blood of Christ.

 RC> I don't underestimate the power of God in any way.  It's
 RC> just that I understand
 RC> how his power is used for salvation, whereas you refuse to
 RC> believe the scripturethat speak directly to you about it.

 But your belief says salvation is not through enough to go beyond your
 generation.  I suppose that is really our major difference.  I believe
 the power of Christ can extend through me, even to and through my
 children to my eternal lineage.   How is that for believing in the power
 of God ?  Does that contradict any scripture you know of ?

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Date       12-16-91 16:11:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 TB >  You can ask the same questions of Jesus' apostles.  How did
 TB>  they find >  Christ when everyone said Jesus was a phoney ?

 RC> They heard his physical voice and didn't need any special
 RC> anointing.  Are you suggesting the same thing?

 Yep,  I hear the voice of God.  That is why you should listen to me.

 RC> I don't know all of what your doctrine includes.  Is there a way
 RC> to find out without having to transmit all of it through the
 RC> echo?

 I can send you the Divine Principle on a few 1.2 meg diskettes if you
 send me your address.  You can net mail it if you like to my bbs.  Or
 you can call and download :   ( 38,400 baud HST )

 DP.ZIP        153,960


 Or <grin> you can have me arrange to have someone knock on your door.


 RC> The biblical doctrine is simple and well-known, so I would
 RC> guess you probably know most of it already.


 I'm not sure what 'bible doctrine' you are speaking of.  I did attend
 Unification Theological Seminary for 2 years where I studied many
 denominational doctrines.  I was also raised Southern Baptist so I have
 pretty good feel for the general fundamental beliefs.

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Date       12-16-91 16:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> picture of his ministry.  You just need to understand that the
 RC> first time he came
 RC> was as a sacrificial offering, but the next time he comes it
 RC> will be as King, and he won't be gentle.

 I find it hard to believe God would keep such a secret from his chosen
 people.  Why can't you find even one Jew who expects Christ to come
 twice ?

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Date       12-16-91 16:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> > First all prophecy is dual in nature.
 RC> This is not prophecy but a direct statement made by Jesus.  He
 RC> said clearly that his purpose in coming was to go through the
 RC> suffering he was about to face.

 I simply think this came as a result of faithless  of the chosen people
 later on in Jesus' ministry.   Here is why Jesus came :

 JOH 10:10   The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to
             destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they
             might have [it] more abundantly.

 Jesus did not have to die to bring fallen man back into a relationship
 with God.  If a dead Christ could do that then there would be no need
 for the resurrection.

 > > Second, I take Jesus mission is the
 > > context of the time frame it actually took place.  This means
 > that many > things happened that changed the message from
 > "Repent the kingdom of > heaven is at hand" in the beginning of
 > Jesus ministry to the promise of a
 > > second coming at the end.

 RC> Do you mean that God didn't know this would happen, and so had
 RC> to change the message when He realized it would?

 God always has to change His plans when man fails.  This does not mean
 that God does not know man may fail.  I am sure God remembered way back
 to when Moses had trouble with faithless followers and had a pretty good
 idea that Jesus may face similar difficulty.

 RC> > When John lost faith and Jesus lost the support
 RC> > from the foundation that God had prepared through the ministry
 RC> of John the
 RC> > Baptist, Jesus had to start over and try to rebuild that
 RC> foundation. > Unfortunately he could not find the quality and
 RC> quantity of supporters he
 RC> > needed to continue.  This disaster was not preordained by God.
 RC> It was a
 RC> > most unfortunate and terrible catastrophe.

 RC> So, you're saying that God didn't foresee or prepare for this
 RC> eventuality, but that Satan was actually much smarter?

 No,  not at all.  I'm saying that God open up a great possibility for
 fallen man to escape Satan's dominion but the people didn't recognize
 the chance they had. As a result they and their children have had to
 remained in suffering under Satan's dominion because they didn't get out
 when they had the chance.

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Date       12-16-91 16:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> And why did Jesus say that his blood was shed for the New
 RC> Covenant (testament)
 RC> so that sins could be remitted?
 RC> ->   Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament,
 RC> which is shed ->   for many for the remission of sins.
 RC>    ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^

 Which sins ?  If the chosen people did not commit the sin of
 faithlessness then Jesus would not have had to pay that price.

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Date       12-16-91 16:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 TB > The most important thing at this time in history is the opportunity
      to be blessed in marriage by the messiah.  Seek him and get that
      blessing at all cost !


 RC> Does this blessing only come through association with Reverend
 RC> Moon?

 First this is something you will have to realize for yourself.  Second
 would it make any difference ?  If a crippled, one eyed, toothless idiot
 had the authority to bless you and your wife in Holy Matrimony to allow
 you to parent sinless children, would you still want it ?  I would do
 whatever necessary to get that blessing.  I really don't think you love
 your children any less. You would also want this blessing for your
 unborn children if you realized it were there.

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Date       12-16-91 16:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> It is unscriptural to believe children can be born into their
 RC> physical body without the sin nature of their parents.  While
 RC> God can do this, he says he will not.

 Are you hinting that God created His children in such a way that as long
 as they had flesh they would automatically sin ?

 Besides a woman named Mary once had a son who had a physical body and he
 did not inherit her sin nature.

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Date       12-16-91 17:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 >   You know what Jesus said:
 >  JOH 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they
 follow >  me:
 >
 >  Who are his sheep ?
 RC> Those who accept the free gift of eternal life through Jesus
 RC> Christ.

 > Is God making that decision ?

 RC> The only decision a man needs to make is an easy one: accept the
 RC> free gift of eternal life.

 So you agree that God is not making the decision and man needs some
 preparation in order to understand and make such a decision.

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Date       12-16-91 17:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 TB> > Is it something like random selection or does man make that
      choice ?

 RC> Man makes a choice to receive the cleansing that God
 RC> offers.

 Well, we aren't really as far apart as I first thought.   I agree that
 it is God who puts man is situations so that man may be purified.  I
 think you understand that man can and often does disappoint God and
 yield to temptation.

 Unfortunately I'm usually in a position to try to get it across to the
 people I am writing to that man has to make decisions and overcome
 temptations that would lead to sin and disrupt a relationship with God.
 In a sense it is like trying to straighten a hacksaw blade.  It has to
 be bent past the point you want it because it will spring back toward
 its original position.  This effort to support man's responsibility
 usually tends to lead people to think I am preaching that salvation has
 little to do with God.  This is not my point, rather I am sure God has
 done His part.  The restoration of the world is still under construction
 because of man's procrastination.  I have the same sense of frustration
 Jesus had when he told the parable of the talents in Mat 25:14 ff.

 Here is his conclusion:

 MAT 25:26   His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and
 slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather
 where I have not strawed:  Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money
 to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine
 own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto
 him which hath ten talents.  For unto every one that hath shall be
 given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be
 taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant
 into outer darkness:


 I get a sense that there is little room near Christ for people of little
 ambition.  See REV 3:15

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Date       12-16-91 17:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 TB> Well, people also used to think that the mother was merely a vessel
     where > the father deposited the baby to grow and mature, but now we
     know that > both parents contribute to the gene pool. Maybe you will
     change this > belief someday?

 RC> And maybe you will change yours.  Is that the best you can do?

 Well, I know I have set a pretty high standard for combating heresy but
 not every reply I make is a jewel.

 RC> >  RC> It was important that Jesus have a father
 RC> >  RC> who did not have the sin nature.
 RC> >
 RC> >  Why ?

 RC> Because Jesus could not offer his life in place for others if he
 RC> had the sin nature.  He had to be born without sin and remain
 RC> that way in order for his sacrifice to be perfect.
 RC> He was both God and man, with no sin to cause him to deserve
 RC> death.  The only man who did not deserve death -- who was also
 RC> God -- accepted it so that those who did deserve it did not have
 RC> to face the eternal death of hell.

 So if Jesus' father was indeed Zacharias that would mean that God could
 not have sent His son because God can't send a sinless child to a human
 couple ?

 TB>  Sorry, I believe Christs' blood was more powerful while
 TB>  inside his veins. I suppose this is the root of our
 TB> disagreement.

 RC> Yes, and in order for you to believe what you do,
 RC> you have to ignore the types and shadows in the Old Testament of
 RC> which Jesus was the fulfillment. In the Old Testament, blood
 RC> sacrifice was always required for the sin of the people.  That
 RC> hasn't changed.  The difference is that where the Old Covenant
 RC> required blood sacrificyearly, the New Covenant was completed by
 RC> only one perfect blood sacrifice
 RC> -- that of Jesus Christ.

 But this blood sacrifice you say Jesus HAD to make was dependant on
 Satan fulfilling a portion of responsibility that included entering
 Judas and betraying Christ.  Do you see why I find it hard to believe
 that God formulated a plan that depended on Satan to fulfill a mission?

 If you are correct then if Satan had failed the offering would not have
 been made and man would be in hell forever... or something like that.
 Let me get back to my point...  sinless children need no blood
 sacrifice.  They are born right the first time.  The great hope of
 Christianity is the marriage of the Lamb.  This will really take place,
 in fact I'll tell you it already took place over 31 years ago.


 TB >  Where is Christs' blood most powerful?   In his body or on
 TB > the ground?

 RC> For the remission of sin, it has the greatest power
 RC> only when shed, for without
 RC> the shedding of blood, there is NO remission of sin.

 I think you wrote before you thought about that.

 TB> In his body it could sustain his physical life and allow him to
     become the > father of God's grand children.  On the ground Satan is
     the one who can > have grand children.

 RC> The entire world was populated by the children of Satan.  Only
 RC> those who have been born again of the spirit become children of
 RC> God.

 Yes, but only in a spiritual sense.  These born again folk still
 procreate children that are in need of salvation.  God is going to fix
 this problem and He may not fix it like you expect. In fact the only
 solution to the problem of people being born of fornication is to get
 their parents married first.

 JOH 8:41 ...Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we
 have one Father, [even] God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your
 Father, ye would love me:

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Date       12-16-91 18:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Exegetical Help WanWa

 RC> or earlier.  Sometimes he would pray all night.  The "watching"
 RC> means going without sleep,
 RC> literally and figuratively, to stay in God's will.  I used to
 RC> stay up all night Friday night till about 5 am to pray and
 RC> meditate in the word.

 I knew there was a reason God is working to show you the Divine
 Principe.  You have knocked and now the door is being opened for you.
 I repent that I am not qualified to teach you this new truth in a way
 you can easily receive it.

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Date       12-16-91 18:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject    False Revivals, Character

 PM>               Characteristics of False Revivals

 Where did you get the idea for such a topic ?

 PM> Appeal to the imagination.

 Oh you went to a False revival.

 PM> Excite the emtions.
 PM> Gratify love for what is new and startling.

 Those two are also characteristics of a true revival.

 PM> This is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.
 PM> But demonstrating demons in the form of men, are present.
 PM>
 PM> Note: a false revival is to preceed the true one.
 PM>
 PM> Question: are we already in it?

 No, the real question is what do you have against the Pentecostal
 Church ?

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Date       12-16-91 18:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Jesus/God

 RC> > Don't you know there are 7 deadly sins that carry a little
 RC> more weight ?
 RC> Not so.  That is a myth in relation to hell.  All sin has
 RC> consequences, but for the believer, one consequence that is
 RC> eliminated is that of facing hell.
 RC> > Can you name 5 of them ?
 RC> No interest.

 Humm,  I thought you were Catholic.  Well so much for that theory.  You
 are well behaved like many Catholics I have had discussions with.  You
 are also well behaved like the Mormons I have had discussions with.  You
 must tell me more about your protestant affiliations.  I find few
 protestant fundamental christians have the intellectual capacity to
 discuss my ideas in the detail you have achieved.  Perhaps many could
 but their emotions eventually cause them to get really weird.

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Date       12-16-91 18:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    The "virgin" Mary

 RC> If Jesus hadn't died on the cross, there would have been only
 RC> one child of God. Instead, all can have the same nature.

 Oh yeah ?  What if he had married and had 10 or 20 children ?
 Do you really think Satan would have wanted to deal with those sinless
 children ?   Who benefited most by Jesus' crucifixion ?  Could it be the
 one who participated by entering Judas and betraying Christ to bring
 about this event ?

 Sinless children grow up to be messiahs you know.  Do you realize that
 Christ had the power on earth to forgive sins ?  If a dead Christ
 provided salvation then there would have been no need for God to
 resurrect Jesus.

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Date       12-16-91 20:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject    Conditional Immortality

 PM>   The floodgate doors of spiritism are opened anytime one
 PM> believes   that you die and your spirit is not dead or dormant.

 Why ?  What does knowledge of something have to do with whether it exist
 or not.  Man believed the world was flat for thousands of years but
 realizing it was round did not cause it to changed shape.  It was always
 round. ..well kinda round.  <grin>

 PM>   Were the clear Word of God believed, all of us would know that
 PM>   the living soul has oxygenated blood circulating through it.

 There is no scripture that says this.  Besides if that were true and you
 went into outer space with Jesus then your soul would die.  There is no
 O² out there to oxygenate your blood.

 PM>   Immortality is not a present possession.  In one sense only,
 PM>   it may be *considered* a presnet possession, in that the One
 PM>   who promised it to us, never fails to keep His Promises.

 I don't know what that means.

 PM>   Should you die of prolonged cancer pain, your very next
 PM> thought   (if you come up on the first resurrection) is an echo
 PM> of what   Paul said: "O death, where is thy sting, O grave where
 PM> is thy               victory"

 Why is it so important to you to believe your spirit will not continue
 to live when your body grows old and dies ? All living things eventually
 grow old and die.

 PM>   The interval in between is a total void.  And that is the
 PM> reason   God of Heaven pronouces such scathing curses upon
 PM> spiritists, who   say: "There is no death, and there are no
 PM> dead."

 My concept of death is living outside the dominion of God's love.  It
 has little to do with the morphological state of my physical body.

 PM>   Since we are near (or in) the last days, look for much more of
 PM>   this channeling to invade our churches, and deceive even the

 I'm not suggesting channeling or messing around with spirits of people
 who have died.    I do however understand the our physical body is an
 essential necessity for spiritual growth and people who have died
 without attaining perfection must return to support someone who still
 has a physical body.  This includes everyone who has lived except
 Christ.  So if you know it or not, you are the focus of millions of
 people in the spiritual world.  They must support your spiritual growth
 in order to be resurrected themselves.  Many people have experienced the
 presence of spiritual beings and were confused as a result.  This
 experience lead them to think that they are the reincarnation of that
 person.

 PM>   Incidentally, the doctrine of Conditional Immortality has been
 PM> the   predominant view down through the ages, and only recently
 PM> has it   been so challenged, via Plato and crew.

 I'm not sure what 'conditional immortality' is but I know my spirit will
 exist forever and my body is only a temporary vehicle that is used in
 its development.  When I die and my body returns to the earth I will
 NEVER get it back again.  Wishing and positive thinking and believing
 otherwise won't change that fact.

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Date       12-16-91 20:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Ken Rucker
Subject    FEARING DEATH

 KR> :TB>MAT 18:18   Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind
 KR> on e :TB>shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose
 KR> on earth :TB>be loosed in heaven.
 KR> :TB>
 KR>
 KR>
 KR> I would like your interpretation of that verse. I find t a bit
 KR> confusing. Thanks!

 As I understand it a person's spiritual body has a relationship with
 their physical body that influences the development of the spiritual
 body.  If you become a saint on earth you will be a saint in the
 spiritual world.  If you are a thief and whoremonger while on earth,
 that is what you will be in the spiritual world.

 KR> by the way, I use a few of your utilities and
 KR> maybe you have seen a fe won mine. Had posted msg's to you
 KR> before.

 Not that I can remember...   messages or utilities.  Can you reply and
 just list them with their description ?

 KR> I am assuming from your message that you are a Christian
 KR> and thought I would say Praise God for that.

 Well,  I consider myself a Christian however my theology is considered
 heresy by most people who call themselves christians.  I have been a
 member of the Unification Church, founded by the controversial Rev. Sun
 Myung Moon, for over 15 years.   The basic difference is our belief is
 that Adam and Eve should have matured and then been blessed in marriage
 by God... and God would have had grand children.  However the fall of
 man occurred and this did not happen.  God prepared a foundation and
 sent Jesus to restore the family that Adam and Eve failed to realize.
 In other words, Jesus did not come to be murdered, he came to find a
 bride and establish a ideal family and bring sinless children (God's
 grand children ) into the world.  Since Jesus did not find faith and was
 murdered Christ must return with the same mission :  to marry and
 establish a family centered on God.  When children can be born without
 sin, they will not need a messiah or re-birth.  They will be born right
 the first time.   We believe we are in the last days and this is
 happening now.  By the way, I have found that most Christians worry that
 everyone else will be condemned by this plan and that only Christ and
 his kids can go to heaven.  However we believe it would be a crippled
 teaching if Christ tells his followers that he could marry but they
 could not.  So Christ will adopt his faithful followers into his family
 and they too will be blessed in holy matrimony.

 KR> I am but constantly struggle with the ways of  the world.

 You are not alone in that boat.  We are all wishing for the same thing
 St. Paul wanted :

 ROM 7:22    For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I
 see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and
 bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O
 wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this
 death?

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Date       12-16-91 20:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Tim Of_angle
Subject      Jimmy

 TO>     BC> Jesus didn't come to earth to set up a denomination.
 TO>    TO> No, he came to set up a church. (Matthew 16:18) There is
 TO> a    TO> difference.
 TO>
 TO> TB>  Is that really what you believe ?   Are you spoofing this
 TO> guy ? TB>
 TO> TB>  1JO 3:8 ...For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,
 TO> that he might
 TO> TB>             destroy the works of the devil.
 TO> Do you see some incompatibility between these two concepts?

 Well, I guess not.  I suppose I just wondered why the Jewish people
 didn't expect Christ to come and build a church...  well maybe they were
 and that is why they were waiting on him with a hammer, nails and some
 boards ?   Too bad they had the wrong blue prints.  Jesus could have
 probably built a heck of cathedral.

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Date       12-16-91 20:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject    Merit.  Whose?

 PM>
 PM>    "Their loyalty and devotion has accumulated as merit on
 PM> earth."
 PM>    In that case, the earth should be getting better and better
 PM> each    day.
 PM>
 PM>    One of my inlaws teaches this view.  She is a fool.

 Well someone may be a fool but it may be the one who does not realize
 that evil peopl are also building up merit at the same time.

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Date       12-16-91 21:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Resurrection

 PM> TB>  I'm not suggesting you hold a seance.  But I'm telling you
 PM> TB>  that just as Moses and Elias worked with Jesus, there are
 PM> TB>  people in your lineage who have likewise died and went into
 PM> TB>  spiritual world that will try to work with you.
 PM>
 PM>     This sounds like Roman Catholicm, invoking dead saints to
 PM>     come to our aid.

 You make it sound like being a Catholic is a sin.  .....anyway, you did
 not read anything from me that suggested you try to involve dead saints
 to come to our aid.   I suggest you obey God's word then any spirits,
 saints, demons or middle men can react however they will.  I personally
 don't think too many demons and lowly spirits will be attracted to you
 if you are praying and seeking to live a godly way of life.

 Why do you want to be unconscious when you die ?  Remember to be careful
 what you wish for... you may get it.

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Date       12-16-91 21:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Resurrection

 TB>   There are
 TB>  people in your lineage who have likewise died and went into
 TB>  spiritual world that will try to work with you

 PM>     If so, they are doing a fantastic job of lousing up.


 You keep writing messages like this and you will find many people who
 will agree with you. <grin>

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Date       12-16-91 21:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Will Hansen
Subject    Resurrection

 WH> How can a dead man keep the 10 commandments?

 Simple they :

 EXO 20:13   Thou shalt not kill.
 EXO 20:14   Thou shalt not commit adultery.
 EXO 20:15   Thou shalt not steal.
 EXO 20:16   Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
 EXO 20:17   Thou shalt not covet....

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Date       12-16-91 21:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject    Stages of Perfection

 PM>       Where does the idea that there are "stages" or
 PM> dispensations   come from?
 PM>
 PM>      Are men saved differently in differing ages?  Not really.
 PM>
 PM>   OT people looked forward, we look backward - but all of us
 PM> look   to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

 And a few of us look forward to the Second Coming of Christ.

 PM>   So much for all the massive domes, deep toned organs,
 PM> impressive   ceremonials and all like dunghill material.
 PM>
 PM>   The religion of Jesus Christ needs no such attractions
 PM>   to recommend it.

 So do you think God's house should be a dump like a crack house ?

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Date       12-16-91 22:20:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Tom Grelinger
Subject    "Brainwashing"

 TG> >> CS> That works both ways.  I know someone personally who in
 TG> >> CS> the early 1950's was forced to have her head shaved and
 TG> >> CS> was forbidden to read books or newspapers when she was a
 TG> >> CS> novice on her way to becoming a Roman Catholic nun.
 TG> Big deal.  She chose what she wanted to be, and could have
 TG> backed out at any time before she made final vows.  The Armed
 TG> forces require recruits' heads to be shaved.  Do submariners get
 TG> to read newspapers?  No.  The woman knew what she was getting
 TG> into, and could back out at any time.  I do not call that
 TG> brainwashing.

 Great reply !